independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Tue 12th Nov 2019 1:10pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Prince: Music and More > "Slow" archiving process: intentional?
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 11/07/19 11:58am

christobole

"Slow" archiving process: intentional?

On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 11/07/19 12:15pm

AZStreet

christobole said:

On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!

Personally I want it to be archived properly and securely FIRST and then worry about the releases later.

With the amount of music in there I am not suprised it's taking this log. His output will forever be unmatched so let them take all the time they need. Ruth (P's assistant) said on Questlove's podcast that she was told from I believe the Iron Mountain folks that about 2% of the vault was unrecoverable because it was not properly maintained/damaged etc. Literal history in there...worry about releases later.

(Thinking about that 2% that got damaged drives me crazy sometimes...hope it wasnt the original acetate for I Wish U Heaven demo lol)

[Edited 11/7/19 12:17pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 11/07/19 12:22pm

IstenSzek

avatar

christobole said:

On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!


i would trade that version of Strange Relationship for a disc of Lotusflower session tracks,
no questions asked, right freakin now smile


and true love lives on lollipops and crisps
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 11/07/19 12:30pm

TheEnglishGent

avatar

IstenSzek said:

christobole said:

On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!


i would trade that version of Strange Relationship for a disc of Lotusflower session tracks,
no questions asked, right freakin now smile


There would be another vote here for Lotusflower stuff.

RIP sad
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 11/07/19 12:46pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

christobole said:

On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!


I think you're on the short end of information and the process of archiving (which is not your fault per se). Read Militant's response on this thread. It'll answer your questions: https://prince.org/msg/7/461349

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 11/07/19 12:50pm

BalladofPeterP
arker

I really am more concerned that they do a good job archiving everything. I look forward to enjoying everything that gets released in due time I guess. I just don't want things lost to the "sands of time".

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 11/07/19 4:21pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

BalladofPeterParker said:

I really am more concerned that they do a good job archiving everything. I look forward to enjoying everything that gets released in due time I guess. I just don't want things lost to the "sands of time".


It's illogical, though. If something is degraded or lost, it's gone. The restoration may not even be possible, or not release-worthy. But to worry about something we have no control over is a waste of energy. Just enjoy what does come out, and stay maneuver in gratitude. There will be plenty. Besides, if it's lost, you'd never know it anyway, most likely.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 11/07/19 4:36pm

Strive

Digitizing costs money.

Can't remember where I originally read it but to digitize one cassette for release, in Iron Mountain's faculity, it costs around $3000

Now think that the estate sent 10,000 cassettes to Iron Mountain...and not every cassette has proper labeling. When Michael Howe tried to find P&M 83 for release, they narrowed it down to 12 cassettes and the one they were looking for only had "Cocaine & Cold Coffee" faintly written on the back. Nothing on the front.

It also costs money to pull tapes out of the archive. So they're pulling and digitizing things that are earmarked for future release or items that are in danger of being lost due to their age.

no yesterday or tomorrow, no better remedy for sorrow
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 11/07/19 9:39pm

Graycap23

avatar

Intentional or otherwise..........I'm not feeling it.

The process is what it is.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 11/08/19 1:34am

OperatingTheta
n

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:



IstenSzek said:




christobole said:


On the subject of archiving: I've seen frustration expressed at the fact, that archiving is taking too long, that it's either not professional enough or could/should be handled by more people than just Michael Howe. Is it however possible, that it is in fact the intention for it to take several more years? From a business point of view, wouldn't this make sense? Claiming to have found additional unreleased songs (or alternative versions) of the Purple Rain or 1999 periods, would then justify re-releasing said sets with additional music (as hinted at by Howe himself, in the case of Purple Rain), or releasing additional outtake sets - the estate/record company could always "blame" the slow process of archiving. Unreleased tracks from the golden period could even be sprinkled amongst unreleased tracks from the not so golden periods. The horror of the thought: to debate buying 14 outtakes from Xpectation and Lotusflower just to get one's hands on the Wendy & Lisa version of Strange Relationship!




i would trade that version of Strange Relationship for a disc of Lotusflower session tracks,
no questions asked, right freakin now smile





There would be another vote here for Lotusflower stuff.



Yep. Lotusflower sessions, please. Along with the trio show from the period and for that matter, any other unreleased Paisley Trio material.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 11/08/19 7:18am

savagedreams

intentional.... yes, for very good reasons.

.

its a very time consuming process. depending on the age of tapes, some may need to be baked to even be run through a machine without destroying them. even after baking a tape you may only get one shot to get it right before it falls apart so its not sometihng you rush. youre also not going to run them through at high speed, its generally real time or even slower for the safety of the tape, and to get the best quality transfers. plus depending on what and how things are labeled theres the time researching and cataloging stuff. its going to be a good while still till the whole vault is archived and cataloged.

[Edited 11/8/19 7:20am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 11/08/19 7:26am

lurker316

avatar


Count me among the people who would love Lotusflow34 outtakes.

Yesterday I listened to the Peach & Black podcast's interview of Niko Bolas (the guy who engineered the Origiainls) and he assured them that the archival process is extremely professional, using state-of-the-art technology, and couldn't be in better hands.



 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 11/08/19 8:41am

WhisperingDand
elions

avatar

I'm still trying to process that they're spending $3,000 on a cassette transfer and can't even (or won't even) get the tape speed right...

lurker316 said:


Yesterday I listened to the Peach & Black podcast's interview of Niko Bolas (the guy who engineered the Origiainls) and he assured them that the archival process is extremely professional, using state-of-the-art technology, and couldn't be in better hands.

Is that the reverb guy?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 11/08/19 10:03am

lurker316

avatar

WhisperingDandelions said:

I'm still trying to process that they're spending $3,000 on a cassette transfer and can't even (or won't even) get the tape speed right...

lurker316 said:


Yesterday I listened to the Peach & Black podcast's interview of Niko Bolas (the guy who engineered the Origiainls) and he assured them that the archival process is extremely professional, using state-of-the-art technology, and couldn't be in better hands.

Is that the reverb guy?


Yes. That was the one part of the interview that disappointed me. The P&B guys asked him about the reverb issue, but didn't call him on B&S when he answered.

Throughout the interview Bolas stressed over and over that all of the creative decision were based on a good faith attempt to recreate what Prince would have actually done at the time. But when the hosts specifically asked about the reverb Bolas basically said that he added it because it sounded good to him. That appears to contradict all of his early proclamations to be faithful to Prince, but they let is slide.

I get that their goal is to provide an entertaining interview and it's not in their nature to be confrontational, but they could have pressed him a little bit more. Heck, when they interviewed Tony M they didn't shy away from asking him if he's aware that most Prince fans hate him. If they can get Tony to address the controversy surrounding his tenure in the NGP, the least they could do is ask Bolas if he was aware of the controvery he created by adding that reverb.


 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 11/08/19 11:41am

wonderboy

Neat track. I’m glad to add it to the collection. It’s not my favorite but that’s a hard thing to do which such an outstanding catalog.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 11/08/19 12:30pm

olb99

avatar

lurker316 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

I'm still trying to process that they're spending $3,000 on a cassette transfer and can't even (or won't even) get the tape speed right...

Is that the reverb guy?


Yes. That was the one part of the interview that disappointed me. The P&B guys asked him about the reverb issue, but didn't call him on B&S when he answered.

Throughout the interview Bolas stressed over and over that all of the creative decision were based on a good faith attempt to recreate what Prince would have actually done at the time. But when the hosts specifically asked about the reverb Bolas basically said that he added it because it sounded good to him. That appears to contradict all of his early proclamations to be faithful to Prince, but they let is slide.

I get that their goal is to provide an entertaining interview and it's not in their nature to be confrontational, but they could have pressed him a little bit more. Heck, when they interviewed Tony M they didn't shy away from asking him if he's aware that most Prince fans hate him. If they can get Tony to address the controversy surrounding his tenure in the NGP, the least they could do is ask Bolas if he was aware of the controvery he created by adding that reverb.


.

Thanks for expressing exactly what I thought when listening to that part of the interview. He contradicted himself. It's quite disappointing that they're not employing a more serious mixing engineer...

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 11/08/19 3:59pm

christobole

savagedreams said:

intentional.... yes, for very good reasons.

.

its a very time consuming process. depending on the age of tapes, some may need to be baked to even be run through a machine without destroying them. even after baking a tape you may only get one shot to get it right before it falls apart so its not sometihng you rush. youre also not going to run them through at high speed, its generally real time or even slower for the safety of the tape, and to get the best quality transfers. plus depending on what and how things are labeled theres the time researching and cataloging stuff. its going to be a good while still till the whole vault is archived and cataloged.

[Edited 11/8/19 7:20am]

Sure, we get that it's a time-consumig process. The point I was making, was that some fans have, perhaps rightly so, suggested, that the archiving could be sped up by emplying more people. If it's a race against time, wouldn't having more staff make more sense?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 11/08/19 8:53pm

udo

avatar

Time-consuming process?

It depends on how much money you throw at it.

So it is all about profit maximization.

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 11/08/19 10:00pm

Strive

Do you guys think they just have an unlimited amount of equipment and a bottomless pit of cash to throw at this?

It's nearly 40 years of material from one of the most prolific artists of our time. They're performing triage.

The Estate isn't going to dump all that material on the market and walk away. They're going to monitize it for decades to come.
no yesterday or tomorrow, no better remedy for sorrow
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 11/08/19 11:12pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

Strive said:

Do you guys think they just have an unlimited amount of equipment and a bottomless pit of cash to throw at this? It's nearly 40 years of material from one of the most prolific artists of our time. They're performing triage. The Estate isn't going to dump all that material on the market and walk away. They're going to monitize it for decades to come.


NAILED IT!

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 11/10/19 11:25am

Graycap23

avatar

Strive said:

Do you guys think they just have an unlimited amount of equipment and a bottomless pit of cash to throw at this? It's nearly 40 years of material from one of the most prolific artists of our time. They're performing triage. The Estate isn't going to dump all that material on the market and walk away. They're going to monitize it for decades to come.

Is that a smart strategy? I'd argue that the market for Prince music is shrinking every single year.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 11/10/19 1:03pm

Strive

Graycap23 said:



Strive said:


Do you guys think they just have an unlimited amount of equipment and a bottomless pit of cash to throw at this? It's nearly 40 years of material from one of the most prolific artists of our time. They're performing triage. The Estate isn't going to dump all that material on the market and walk away. They're going to monitize it for decades to come.

Is that a smart strategy? I'd argue that the market for Prince music is shrinking every single year.



Yes. Legends only continue to grow in death.

Murry Wilson thought the same thing as you about The Beach Boys when he sold their publishing company for $700,000 in 1969. Surf music's over and The Beach Boys are washed up, they needed to cash out while there's still something to cash out...it ended up generating $100 million in publishing royalities over the decades.

Prince not only has the hits and the legend behind the music but he also has nearly every live performance recorded in some fashion and an insane amount of unreleased work. All the Estate has to do is cultivate his legacy.

I 100% percent believe that Prince will be more popular/relevant in 20-35 years than he is today. There should be a whole new generation of Prince fans.

Same way that a young Strive found a copy of Pet Sounds in like 2003 and was fascinated with the legend of SMiLE or how he bought Jimi Hendrix's New Rays Of The Rising Sun around the same time period.
[Edited 11/10/19 13:04pm]
no yesterday or tomorrow, no better remedy for sorrow
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 11/10/19 4:05pm

ufoclub

avatar

A past roommate of mine connected to the art world and music biz was in LA visiting a friend... who just quit working on the Prince archives after a year.

He was only doing videos, and said he could see how it could take two to three more years to watch through it all.

He said Prince recorded everything he could in one way or another.

He quit because a few problems, but mainly he wanted to get back to doing his own thing.

He said if he learned one thing from seeing all the Prince footage, it was to take time to do your own thing.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 11/10/19 5:00pm

Graycap23

avatar

Strive said:

Graycap23 said:

Is that a smart strategy? I'd argue that the market for Prince music is shrinking every single year.

Yes. Legends only continue to grow in death. Murry Wilson thought the same thing as you about The Beach Boys when he sold their publishing company for $700,000 in 1969. Surf music's over and The Beach Boys are washed up, they needed to cash out while there's still something to cash out...it ended up generating $100 million in publishing royalities over the decades. Prince not only has the hits and the legend behind the music but he also has nearly every live performance recorded in some fashion and an insane amount of unreleased work. All the Estate has to do is cultivate his legacy. I 100% percent believe that Prince will be more popular/relevant in 20-35 years than he is today. There should be a whole new generation of Prince fans. Same way that a young Strive found a copy of Pet Sounds in like 2003 and was fascinated with the legend of SMiLE or how he bought Jimi Hendrix's New Rays Of The Rising Sun around the same time period. [Edited 11/10/19 13:04pm]

Let's hope that is the case.

The race component plays a big role in rather that plays as out as u have so nicely laid it out.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Prince: Music and More > "Slow" archiving process: intentional?