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Reply #180 posted 12/04/19 8:49am

olb99

avatar

FunkyStrange said:

olb99 said:

.

I've always assumed that the multitrack was required to produce that result. Yes, you can still hear the synth, very faintly, but I thought it was just "track bleeding" or something like that.

Yes that version is fake. Anyone can use software to get these results.. Google Deezer spleeter


I've tested/used Deezer Spleeter almost from day 1. It's supposed to be state of the art, but if you've played with it, you'll recognize the artifacts it introduces very quickly. That mix we're talking about doesn't have those artifacts at all. I'm pretty sure it's not a fake. Especially since it has been circulating for years.

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Reply #181 posted 12/04/19 10:05am

scififilmnerd

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LoveGalore said:

kindofblue said:

Question to the bootleg experts: Are there any bootleg tracks we can get rid of now?

I guess the old Moonbeam Levels and the snippet of If It'll Make You happy are useless now? What about Do Yourself A Favour and Possessed? Any notable differences to the previously circulating bootleg recordings?

Thanks!

You can definitely get rid of: Do Yourself A Favor Possessed Moonbeam Levels Don't let him fool ya No Call U Turn It Up Feel U Up Irresistible Bitch Delirious (full) Purple Music I would keep: Something in the Water (no fade in) If It'll Make U Happy (if you like the minimal lead vocal) Yah U Know (1986 mix) Teacher Teacher (1986 mix) [Edited 11/29/19 7:18am]

No, don't get rid of No Call U. omfg The bootleg version has additional work by - I assume - Wendy & Lisa, so that's a keeper. wink

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Reply #182 posted 12/04/19 10:14am

scififilmnerd

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lurker316 said:

FunkyStrange said:

if its this one - https://www.youtube.com/w...xVROoCu3Cg I think its a fake. just some guy playing around with oftware to strip some of the synths away , not a real mix..

Yes, that's the one I was talking about. Thanks for letting me know it's fake.



I'm not sure that's a fake. confused But it's probaby not from 1981, though. smile

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Reply #183 posted 12/04/19 10:28am

LoveGalore

scififilmnerd said:



LoveGalore said:


kindofblue said:

Question to the bootleg experts: Are there any bootleg tracks we can get rid of now?


I guess the old Moonbeam Levels and the snippet of If It'll Make You happy are useless now? What about Do Yourself A Favour and Possessed? Any notable differences to the previously circulating bootleg recordings?


Thanks!



You can definitely get rid of: Do Yourself A Favor Possessed Moonbeam Levels Don't let him fool ya No Call U Turn It Up Feel U Up Irresistible Bitch Delirious (full) Purple Music I would keep: Something in the Water (no fade in) If It'll Make U Happy (if you like the minimal lead vocal) Yah U Know (1986 mix) Teacher Teacher (1986 mix) [Edited 11/29/19 7:18am]


No, don't get rid of No Call U. omfg The bootleg version has additional work by - I assume - Wendy & Lisa, so that's a keeper. wink



The bootleg version of No Call U does not have input from Wendy and Lisa. If you wanted to be a stickler, you could keep it because it's a different vocal take in parts (the released version being a take two with parts of this one combined).

For me, it's a delete. Don't need multiple versions of a just okay song now that the definitive version is released.
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Reply #184 posted 12/04/19 11:52am

TheLotus

PurpleYoda3121 said:

If It'll Make U Happy definitely sounds like a potential song for The Time to me

.

I have always thought that about International Lover, High Fashion, and Mutiny. Now that you mention it for It'll Make You Happy, I can see that also.

.

The swag factor of the lyrics in International Lover and High Fashion seem very likely as Time songs. But the version of Lover that ended up on 1999 is very Prince.

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Reply #185 posted 12/04/19 11:59am

TheLotus

kindofblue said:

Question to the bootleg experts: Are there any bootleg tracks we can get rid of now?

I guess the old Moonbeam Levels and the snippet of If It'll Make You happy are useless now? What about Do Yourself A Favour and Possessed? Any notable differences to the previously circulating bootleg recordings?

Thanks!

.

Not too sure about that. To me, the bass and kick drum hit a bit harder in the excerpt than they do in the full version they just released. I like that a bit better, so I'll be holding on to that excerpt version. But I am very happy to have the full version. I may have to try some editing/EQ magic for that...

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Reply #186 posted 12/04/19 12:01pm

srodaz

Se7en said:

srodaz said:

This is probably my favorite of all the LPs in this release and thats saying something because they are all fantastic! Here is my take for each song:

Feel U Up/ Irresistible Bitch
Awesome to have these in good clear quality. I have heard these before mixed together as many have stated and don't mind so much that they are apart. Listening on my bose headphones really brings out all the nuances and subtle sounds he makes which I completely miss when even cranking on my stereo. These two songs have so many layers...love it.



Money Don’t Grow On Trees
This one is alright but not my fav. It has a nice riff and catchy lyrics but usually skip over.



Vagina
This one grew on me and was perhaps early insights to his Camille persona...in concep but not in sound. I think its really cool that prince is making the drum sounds with his voice. My wife asked if Prince ever had a thing for transgendered or maybe an early experience with one. I'm not so sure but clearly he is facinated with the 3rd sex.



Rearrange
This one is my FAVORITE of the entire release. I've must have replayed this 20+ times already. First time I heard that base I was hooked. I love that it has that lady cab driver sound and being a huge fan of his guitar playing talent having him crank it throughout was the icing on the cake. If Bruno Mars were to release this I'm positive it would be a top 10 hit.



Bold Generation
Another favorite of mine. Funky and should have been a Time release for sure. I wonder if that was maybe the plan but maybe Prince thought it was too good to give it to Morris once they started having the friction. Clearly he knew it was a hit and decided to shelve it for a later project (Graffiti Bridge) which is a shame because this version is so much better and would have fit perfectly with the that era as us GenXers can relate with.


Colleen
Nice tune gets a llttle repetitive. I think its cool that the name comes from Peggy his producers middle name...which just goes to show that so much music was flowing from him he would create a tune and just toss the cassette to someone and say its yours.

International Lover (Take 1) [Live In Studio]
Liner notes says this was Prince just messing around with Morris and you can hear that in the playful relaxed banter at the end. Originally intended for the Time.

Turn It Up
Heard this one before and its nice to hear this in good quality. Not necesssarily my favorite but its a simple song which gets repetitive.


You’re All I Want
I have a playlist called Prince in the 50s which includes songs like Delirous because it has that rockabilly sound to it. This one is now on that playlist because thats the sound...similar to Horny Toad.



Something In The Water (Does Not Compute)
This was a song that got constant play from me back when I was a going through the confusion of the games teen girls play when I first started noticing them in my teens (did not compute). Although that electronic sound is still there its toned down a little and feels more raw and even a little more emotional...I like this version better and wow took me immediately back to a girl who totally played me...strange how you can remember a get those feelings so many years just by hearing a song.



If It’ll Make U Happy
I love love love this song. Wifes favorite as well who is a casual Prince fan. I have heard this one almost as much as rearrange.



How Come U Don’t Call Me Anymore? (Take 2)
The gem of the album. I mean what can I say that hasn't already been said...love that you can hear Prince banging his boots on the piano as he is playing

In short, I think WB and the estate did a fantastic job. Hearing some of these for the first time (and others I have heard in great quality) only makes hungry for more vault material.

Give me more please!


Great review.

If I'm not mistaken, the part about throwing a cassette to Peggy and saying "it's yours" was the song You're All I Want.

The labeling of the instrumental "Colleen" was just Prince being a bit lazy/nonchalant. Peggy asked him what to write on the box, he asked her "what's your middle name - use that".

Yes you're right...my mistake. Did those background liner notes on the vault songs come with the CD deluxe version as well? That's probably my favorite thing about the whole LP package. Awesome to get those unique insights as well as the time they were created.


Again nice job estate and WB for an awesome release and presentation that is worthy of Prince.

[Edited 12/4/19 12:11pm]

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Reply #187 posted 12/04/19 3:31pm

FunkyStrange

TheSilentMikey said:

FunkyStrange said:

olb99 said: Yes that version is fake. Anyone can use software to get these results.. Google Deezer spleeter

No, it's not fake. And not anyone can get these "results" with some amateur software.

[Edited 12/4/19 8:02am]

[Edited 12/4/19 8:02am]

Ok. I guess that's the end of that then.

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Reply #188 posted 12/04/19 6:14pm

NeoSoul

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TURN IT UP

The song reminds me of another Prince song. He definitely recycled the beats and sound effects for another song or songs.

Can anyone name any Prince songs that resemble Turn It Up?

NeoSoul.com
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Reply #189 posted 12/04/19 6:25pm

Se7en

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srodaz said:



Se7en said:




srodaz said:


This is probably my favorite of all the LPs in this release and thats saying something because they are all fantastic! Here is my take for each song:




Feel U Up/ Irresistible Bitch
Awesome to have these in good clear quality. I have heard these before mixed together as many have stated and don't mind so much that they are apart. Listening on my bose headphones really brings out all the nuances and subtle sounds he makes which I completely miss when even cranking on my stereo. These two songs have so many layers...love it.




Money Don’t Grow On Trees
This one is alright but not my fav. It has a nice riff and catchy lyrics but usually skip over.




Vagina
This one grew on me and was perhaps early insights to his Camille persona...in concep but not in sound. I think its really cool that prince is making the drum sounds with his voice. My wife asked if Prince ever had a thing for transgendered or maybe an early experience with one. I'm not so sure but clearly he is facinated with the 3rd sex.




Rearrange
This one is my FAVORITE of the entire release. I've must have replayed this 20+ times already. First time I heard that base I was hooked. I love that it has that lady cab driver sound and being a huge fan of his guitar playing talent having him crank it throughout was the icing on the cake. If Bruno Mars were to release this I'm positive it would be a top 10 hit.





Bold Generation
Another favorite of mine. Funky and should have been a Time release for sure. I wonder if that was maybe the plan but maybe Prince thought it was too good to give it to Morris once they started having the friction. Clearly he knew it was a hit and decided to shelve it for a later project (Graffiti Bridge) which is a shame because this version is so much better and would have fit perfectly with the that era as us GenXers can relate with.




Colleen
Nice tune gets a llttle repetitive. I think its cool that the name comes from Peggy his producers middle name...which just goes to show that so much music was flowing from him he would create a tune and just toss the cassette to someone and say its yours.

International Lover (Take 1) [Live In Studio]
Liner notes says this was Prince just messing around with Morris and you can hear that in the playful relaxed banter at the end. Originally intended for the Time.

Turn It Up
Heard this one before and its nice to hear this in good quality. Not necesssarily my favorite but its a simple song which gets repetitive.




You’re All I Want
I have a playlist called Prince in the 50s which includes songs like Delirous because it has that rockabilly sound to it. This one is now on that playlist because thats the sound...similar to Horny Toad.




Something In The Water (Does Not Compute)
This was a song that got constant play from me back when I was a going through the confusion of the games teen girls play when I first started noticing them in my teens (did not compute). Although that electronic sound is still there its toned down a little and feels more raw and even a little more emotional...I like this version better and wow took me immediately back to a girl who totally played me...strange how you can remember a get those feelings so many years just by hearing a song.






If It’ll Make U Happy
I love love love this song. Wifes favorite as well who is a casual Prince fan. I have heard this one almost as much as rearrange.




How Come U Don’t Call Me Anymore? (Take 2)
The gem of the album. I mean what can I say that hasn't already been said...love that you can hear Prince banging his boots on the piano as he is playing




In short, I think WB and the estate did a fantastic job. Hearing some of these for the first time (and others I have heard in great quality) only makes hungry for more vault material.



Give me more please!




Great review.

If I'm not mistaken, the part about throwing a cassette to Peggy and saying "it's yours" was the song You're All I Want.

The labeling of the instrumental "Colleen" was just Prince being a bit lazy/nonchalant. Peggy asked him what to write on the box, he asked her "what's your middle name - use that".




Yes you're right...my mistake. Did those background liner notes on the vault songs come with the CD deluxe version as well? That's probably my favorite thing about the whole LP package. Awesome to get those unique insights as well as the time they were created.



Again nice job estate and WB for an awesome release and presentation that is worthy of Prince.



[Edited 12/4/19 12:11pm]




I haven’t gotten mine yet! Pretty sure there’s a booklet in the CD package, just smaller!
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Reply #190 posted 12/04/19 6:35pm

bfunk

The digipak for CD3 (Vault Tracks I) has a printing error on the cover. In red text over the image of the reel it says "Vault Tracks I". Looks like this is the text intended for the spine.I think this is just a US pressing error as well. The unboxing video done by Super Deluxe Edition does not have this error, and I am pretty sure they are in the UK.

This text is not present on the Gatefold for LP 5&6

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Reply #191 posted 12/04/19 6:40pm

rdhull

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NeoSoul said:

TURN IT UP

The song reminds me of another Prince song. He definitely recycled the beats and sound effects for another song or songs.

Can anyone name any Prince songs that resemble Turn It Up?

It has elements of that Dirty Mind keyboard bass (which begat Controversy some say). Some of the wheeen keyboard reminds me of Delirious. And the mish mash part reminds me of the radical portion of Automatic. Hell, slowed down seems like it would be Automatic.

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #192 posted 12/05/19 9:45am

scififilmnerd

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srodaz said:

Vagina
This one grew on me and was perhaps early insights to his Camille persona...in concep but not in sound. I think its really cool that prince is making the drum sounds with his voice. My wife asked if Prince ever had a thing for transgendered or maybe an early experience with one. I'm not so sure but clearly he is facinated with the 3rd sex.

I don't think it's about a transgender person or even a hermafrodite. I think it's about a drag king (a woman who dresses like a man) called Vagina whom he meets at a gay bar kissing another woman. And Vagina is obviously bisexual, because Prince and her "do it with the TV on". smile Now the question is: What was Prince doing at a gay bar? Hanging out with Lisa? What? razz

[Edited 12/5/19 13:55pm]

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Reply #193 posted 12/05/19 10:10am

leadline

avatar

scififilmnerd said:

srodaz said:

Vagina
This one grew on me and was perhaps early insights to his Camille persona...in concep but not in sound. I think its really cool that prince is making the drum sounds with his voice. My wife asked if Prince ever had a thing for transgendered or maybe an early experience with one. I'm not so sure but clearly he is facinated with the 3rd sex.

I don't think it's about a transgender person or even a hermafrodite. I think it's about a drang king (a woman who dresses like a man) called Vagina whom he meets at a gay bar kissing another woman. And Vagina is obviously bisexual, because Prince and her "do it with the TV on". smile Now the question is: What was Prince doing at a gay bar? Hanging out with Lisa? What? razz


It could just be the most simple explanation which is this.

Prince wanted to name Denise Vagina, but they settled on Vanity. The song is most likely about her, and Prince felt, like himself, she was in touch with both her feminine and masculine side. The fact that the lyric says short hair, or the drawing looks like Ziggy Stardust with breasts is irrelevant.

Not sayin' this is the meaning, just sayin' it could be.......




[Edited 12/5/19 10:12am]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #194 posted 12/05/19 10:12am

scififilmnerd

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LoveGalore said:

scififilmnerd said:

No, don't get rid of No Call U. omfg The bootleg version has additional work by - I assume - Wendy & Lisa, so that's a keeper. wink

The bootleg version of No Call U does not have input from Wendy and Lisa. If you wanted to be a stickler, you could keep it because it's a different vocal take in parts (the released version being a take two with parts of this one combined). For me, it's a delete. Don't need multiple versions of a just okay song now that the definitive version is released.

Just listened to the bootleg of No Call U and I hear a female bacing vocal here and there, but you're right. I don't think it's Wendy & Lisa. Could be Jill Jones? confused And it's either incomplete or an edit...? confused Anyway, I'm a stickler so I'm keeping it. biggrin

If you don't need multiple versions of a just okay song why are you hanging on to the bootleg version of Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) (Original Version)? The released version is exactly the same as the bootleg version I've got with the fade-in. confused So, that's a delete for me. smile

[Edited 12/5/19 10:13am]

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Reply #195 posted 12/05/19 1:08pm

TheSilentMikey

scififilmnerd said:

LoveGalore said:

scififilmnerd said: The bootleg version of No Call U does not have input from Wendy and Lisa. If you wanted to be a stickler, you could keep it because it's a different vocal take in parts (the released version being a take two with parts of this one combined). For me, it's a delete. Don't need multiple versions of a just okay song now that the definitive version is released.

Just listened to the bootleg of No Call U and I hear a female bacing vocal here and there, but you're right. I don't think it's Wendy & Lisa. Could be Jill Jones? confused And it's either incomplete or an edit...? confused Anyway, I'm a stickler so I'm keeping it. biggrin

If you don't need multiple versions of a just okay song why are you hanging on to the bootleg version of Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) (Original Version)? The released version is exactly the same as the bootleg version I've got with the fade-in. confused So, that's a delete for me. smile

[Edited 12/5/19 10:13am]

I suggest you keep the bootleg version of "No Call U" as it's an early version with the first vocal take and more prominent backing vocals by Jill Jones. It is an edit. Likely to keep the bootleggers away from the full song.

[Edited 12/5/19 13:09pm]

"Don't need no Reefer. Don't need Cocaine. Purple Music does the same to my brain."
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Reply #196 posted 12/05/19 1:38pm

SchlomoThaHomo

avatar

scififilmnerd said:



srodaz said:



Vagina
This one grew on me and was perhaps early insights to his Camille persona...in concep but not in sound. I think its really cool that prince is making the drum sounds with his voice. My wife asked if Prince ever had a thing for transgendered or maybe an early experience with one. I'm not so sure but clearly he is facinated with the 3rd sex.





I don't think it's about a transgender person or even a hermafrodite. I think it's about a drang king (a woman who dresses like a man) called Vagina whom he meets at a gay bar kissing another woman. And Vagina is obviously bisexual, because Prince and her "do it with the TV on". smile Now the question is: What was Prince doing at a gay bar? Hanging out with Lisa? What? razz



The “TV” line could be a play on words, as TV also stands for transvestite.
"That's when stars collide. When there's space for what u want, and ur heart is open wide."
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Reply #197 posted 12/05/19 1:50pm

PurpleBlackmon

Dez said that he couldn't find the master recording for Modernaire and had to use a cassette recording to release. Does anyone know if Prince recorded a version? If he did, they should've put it on Originals.

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Reply #198 posted 12/05/19 1:57pm

scififilmnerd

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SchlomoThaHomo said:

scififilmnerd said:

I don't think it's about a transgender person or even a hermafrodite. I think it's about a drag king (a woman who dresses like a man) called Vagina whom he meets at a gay bar kissing another woman. And Vagina is obviously bisexual, because Prince and her "do it with the TV on". smile Now the question is: What was Prince doing at a gay bar? Hanging out with Lisa? What? razz

The “TV” line could be a play on words, as TV also stands for transvestite.

Oh, that's clever. I hadn't thought of that. smile

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Reply #199 posted 12/05/19 2:02pm

LoveGalore

scififilmnerd said:



LoveGalore said:


scififilmnerd said:



No, don't get rid of No Call U. omfg The bootleg version has additional work by - I assume - Wendy & Lisa, so that's a keeper. wink



The bootleg version of No Call U does not have input from Wendy and Lisa. If you wanted to be a stickler, you could keep it because it's a different vocal take in parts (the released version being a take two with parts of this one combined). For me, it's a delete. Don't need multiple versions of a just okay song now that the definitive version is released.


Just listened to the bootleg of No Call U and I hear a female bacing vocal here and there, but you're right. I don't think it's Wendy & Lisa. Could be Jill Jones? confused And it's either incomplete or an edit...? confused Anyway, I'm a stickler so I'm keeping it. biggrin



If you don't need multiple versions of a just okay song why are you hanging on to the bootleg version of Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) (Original Version)? The released version is exactly the same as the bootleg version I've got with the fade-in. confused So, that's a delete for me. smile

[Edited 12/5/19 10:13am]


It is Jill Jones.

The fade in for SITW is just random and unnecessary. And it's totally a killer song worthy of a proper intro.
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Reply #200 posted 12/05/19 3:38pm

TheSilentMikey

LoveGalore said:

scififilmnerd said:

Just listened to the bootleg of No Call U and I hear a female bacing vocal here and there, but you're right. I don't think it's Wendy & Lisa. Could be Jill Jones? confused And it's either incomplete or an edit...? confused Anyway, I'm a stickler so I'm keeping it. biggrin

If you don't need multiple versions of a just okay song why are you hanging on to the bootleg version of Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) (Original Version)? The released version is exactly the same as the bootleg version I've got with the fade-in. confused So, that's a delete for me. smile

[Edited 12/5/19 10:13am]

It is Jill Jones. The fade in for SITW is just random and unnecessary. And it's totally a killer song worthy of a proper intro.

Well you'll be disappointed to know that the version with no fade-in was fan-made (but well-made).

There was always a fade-in.

[Edited 3/8/20 10:06am]

"Don't need no Reefer. Don't need Cocaine. Purple Music does the same to my brain."
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Reply #201 posted 12/06/19 12:32am

WhisperingDand
elions

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"Colleen" sounds like the "Jungle Love" groove / prototype to me. Most slept on track CD3, even in the prime 80s those Princestrumentals get eternally slept on.

[Edited 12/6/19 0:35am]

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Reply #202 posted 12/06/19 12:41am

dustoff

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"Vagina" seems to me like basically Prince's answer to the Kink's "Lola." I don't know if anyone's pointed out the similarities -- apologies if this is the case -- but the general garage-rock vibe and lyrics ("met her at a bar" etc.) make me suspect that Prince had the song in mind.

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Reply #203 posted 12/06/19 2:44am

noobman

dustoff said:

"Vagina" seems to me like basically Prince's answer to the Kink's "Lola." I don't know if anyone's pointed out the similarities -- apologies if this is the case -- but the general garage-rock vibe and lyrics ("met her at a bar" etc.) make me suspect that Prince had the song in mind.

Yes, the song seems very directly influenced by Lola.

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Reply #204 posted 12/06/19 7:08pm

purplepolitici
an

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Transgender 😆. Vagina is about him (or whoever) messing with a tough tomboy/bisexual chick end of story. The lack of extra instrumentation kept me from feeling it at first but I've warmed to it. N I can feel his (or whoever 😛) sentiments. Tough women r hot 💪.

My familiarity with NPG kept me from liking Bold Generation but it's a pretty funky take now that I've grown with it. I mess with it 😎. Lots to enjoy about this set 😃. Rediscovering the old boot songs n their new versions. S'all good music
For all time I am with you, you are with me.
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Reply #205 posted 12/06/19 8:40pm

LoveGalore

TheSilentMikey said:



LoveGalore said:


scififilmnerd said:



Just listened to the bootleg of No Call U and I hear a female bacing vocal here and there, but you're right. I don't think it's Wendy & Lisa. Could be Jill Jones? confused And it's either incomplete or an edit...? confused Anyway, I'm a stickler so I'm keeping it. biggrin



If you don't need multiple versions of a just okay song why are you hanging on to the bootleg version of Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) (Original Version)? The released version is exactly the same as the bootleg version I've got with the fade-in. confused So, that's a delete for me. smile


[Edited 12/5/19 10:13am]



It is Jill Jones. The fade in for SITW is just random and unnecessary. And it's totally a killer song worthy of a proper intro.

Well you'll be disappointed to know that the version with no fade-out was fan-made (but well-made).


There was always a fade-in.



Tell me you're lying
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Reply #206 posted 12/07/19 6:37am

herb4

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These are really great and I'm getting a kick out of haivng them but I'm noticing a LOT of the tracks instantly remind me of other songs. Not obvious ones like Bold Generation but others. It doesn't bother me but I hear Delirious, Horny Toad, Sister, The Stick...

I haven't soaked it enough to reference them all but I keep getting flashbacks.

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Reply #207 posted 12/07/19 10:12am

Nikkie

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Looks like the girl with the moustache on the cover of Around the World in a Day could very well be Vagina! Or her cousin. smile

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Reply #208 posted 12/07/19 11:43pm

Moonbeam

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This would be a top 10 Prince album if released as is. “Rearrange” and “Bold Generation” are incredible. Hearing “Turn It Up” and “Something in the Water” in this quality is wonderful. And how about that alternate version of “How Come U Don’t Call Me Anymore”?!

The only song that doesn’t quite delight me is “If It’ll Make U Happy”, but it’s growing on me.
Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you!
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Reply #209 posted 12/07/19 11:51pm

purplepolitici
an

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^ But it is top 10 in the chart of our hearts dead
For all time I am with you, you are with me.
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > 1999 Re-issues - CD3/LP5&6 (Vault Tracks Pt 1, recorded between November 1981 and April 1982) - DISCUSSION