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Reply #30 posted 12/10/19 12:18pm

rdhull

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And the best result of it was Another Lonely Christmas, PR, God, and Alexa.....

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #31 posted 12/10/19 12:59pm

TheEnglishGent

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There are many examples of Prince using reverb, as have been mentioned already and no doubt hundreds more. As for the current releases, it hasn't really bothered me, If It'll Make You Happy is probably the only one which was slightly jarring.

The sad fact is that we no longer have Prince here with us to produce these releases and it must fall to someone else, which is always going to leave things open to artistic interpretation. We also don't have the privilege of being able to hear the original vocal as it was put to tape, so we have no frame of reference for which is better.

Something else we need to consider is what Prince would have thought of these final vocal releases. Wasn't the Camille voice the result of an accident with tape speeds and not an intentiona effect? It might not be how he would have done it or intended it but there's certainly a chance he might have been fine with releasing everything as it stands right now had he heard it.

RIP sad
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Reply #32 posted 12/10/19 2:30pm

leadline

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

There are many examples of Prince using reverb, as have been mentioned already and no doubt hundreds more. As for the current releases, it hasn't really bothered me, If It'll Make You Happy is probably the only one which was slightly jarring.

The sad fact is that we no longer have Prince here with us to produce these releases and it must fall to someone else, which is always going to leave things open to artistic interpretation. We also don't have the privilege of being able to hear the original vocal as it was put to tape, so we have no frame of reference for which is better.

Something else we need to consider is what Prince would have thought of these final vocal releases. Wasn't the Camille voice the result of an accident with tape speeds and not an intentiona effect? It might not be how he would have done it or intended it but there's certainly a chance he might have been fine with releasing everything as it stands right now had he heard it.



Great post, well thought out, but I disagree on the bolded items.

Curating Prince's music is not the time explore artistic freedom. Prince did the hard part for everyone, that being the completion of the songs they are actually working with, be them in demo form, or, fully produced. The music and the vocals on theses tracks are how they are, because that is how Prince either wanted them, or the state he left them in. Either way, these songs literally are the example, the guide, and there should be nothing additional added, no embellishments, no maybe Prince would haves, no taking liberties to satisy your own artistic expression. Any of this is an insult to Prince, his work, his recording process, and his fans. Listen to the songs in the vault, and respect what you hear, it really is as simple as that.

As far as frame of refrence goes, we do have a frame of refrence, which is the entire calatlog of Prince's music, both released and unreleased. Sure there are examples of reverb that he used, Damn U, God, Crucial, Purple Rain, and others, but they are mostly on slow songs and used sparingly, and smartly, to immerse the listener even further. With these new releases, we have willy nilly dipping of his vocals and the music at times in that heavy chorus like church effect, and when it comes to songs like Sex Shooter, Jumgle Love, The Glamorous life, etc, with these fast songs, funk songs, there is no historical example of Prince ever adding this heavy reverb to tracks like this, on his released, or unreleased stuff. Instead of immersing the listener, these additions do the exact opposite, it makes it sound karaoke as I have stated before. A tight funk song demands tight sounding funk vocals, not vocals with bleeding reverb. Prince would be appalled at how his music is being curated.

Lastly, we do know what he would have thought about the music in its post curated form, because we do have those historical examples, as released, and unreleased music. All one has to do is look at the historical document, and how Prince would have felt should be very clear. And to those curating his music, that is all you need to do as well. Stop disrespecting his music and take better care on future releases please, this process is about Prince, and Prince only. Nothing has to be re-invented, especially considering that whatever song you are curating, is literally the instruction manual of how Prince wanted things.




[Edited 12/10/19 19:51pm]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #33 posted 12/10/19 6:40pm

lurker316

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leadline said:

TheEnglishGent said:

There are many examples of Prince using reverb, as have been mentioned already and no doubt hundreds more. As for the current releases, it hasn't really bothered me, If It'll Make You Happy is probably the only one which was slightly jarring.

The sad fact is that we no longer have Prince here with us to produce these releases and it must fall to someone else, which is always going to leave things open to artistic interpretation. We also don't have the privilege of being able to hear the original vocal as it was put to tape, so we have no frame of reference for which is better.

Something else we need to consider is what Prince would have thought of these final vocal releases. Wasn't the Camille voice the result of an accident with tape speeds and not an intentiona effect? It might not be how he would have done it or intended it but there's certainly a chance he might have been fine with releasing everything as it stands right now had he heard it.



Great post, well thought out, but I disagree on the bolded items.

Curating Prince's music is not the time explore artistic freedom. Prince did that hard part, he completed the song. The music and the vocals are how they are, because that is how Prince either wanted them, or the state he left them in, either way, these songs literally are the example, there should be nothing additional added, no embellishments, no maybe Prince would haves, no taking liberties to satisy your own artistic expression. Any of this is an insult to Prince, his work, his recording process, and his fans. Listen to the songs in the vault, and respect what you hear, it really is as simple as that.

As far as frame of refrence goes, we do have a frame of refrence, which is the entire calatlog of Prince's music, both released and unreleased. Sure there are examples of reverb that he used, Damn U, God, Crucial, Purple Rain, and others, but they are mostly on slow songs and used sparingly, and smartly, to immerse the listener even further. With these new releases, we have willy nilly dipping of his vocals and the music at times in that heavy chorus like church effect, and when it comes to songs like Sex Shooter, Jumgle Love, The Glamorous life, etc, with these fast songs, funk songs, there is no historical example of Prince ever adding this heavy reverb to tracks like this, on his released, or unreleased stuff. Instead of immersing the listener, these additions do the exact opposite, it makes it sound karaoke as I have stated before. A tight funk song demands tight sounding funk vocals, not vocals with bleeding reverb. Prince would be appalled at how his music is being curated.

Lastly, we do know what he would have though about the music in its post curated form, because we do have those historical examples, as released, and unreleased music. All one has to do is look at the historical document, and how Prince would have felt should be very clear. And to those curating his music, that is all you need to do as well. Stop disrespecting his music and take better care on future releases please, this process is about Prince, and Prince only. Nothing has to be re-invented, especially considering that whatever song you are curating, is literally the instruction manual of how Prince wanted things.



[Edited 12/10/19 14:34pm]



Excellent post. Very well stated.



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Reply #34 posted 12/11/19 2:25am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

leadline said:

TheEnglishGent said:

There are many examples of Prince using reverb, as have been mentioned already and no doubt hundreds more. As for the current releases, it hasn't really bothered me, If It'll Make You Happy is probably the only one which was slightly jarring.

The sad fact is that we no longer have Prince here with us to produce these releases and it must fall to someone else, which is always going to leave things open to artistic interpretation. We also don't have the privilege of being able to hear the original vocal as it was put to tape, so we have no frame of reference for which is better.

Something else we need to consider is what Prince would have thought of these final vocal releases. Wasn't the Camille voice the result of an accident with tape speeds and not an intentiona effect? It might not be how he would have done it or intended it but there's certainly a chance he might have been fine with releasing everything as it stands right now had he heard it.



Great post, well thought out, but I disagree on the bolded items.

Curating Prince's music is not the time explore artistic freedom. Prince did the hard part for everyone, that being the completion of the songs they are actually working with, be them in demo form, or, fully produced. The music and the vocals on theses tracks are how they are, because that is how Prince either wanted them, or the state he left them in. Either way, these songs literally are the example, the guide, and there should be nothing additional added, no embellishments, no maybe Prince would haves, no taking liberties to satisy your own artistic expression. Any of this is an insult to Prince, his work, his recording process, and his fans. Listen to the songs in the vault, and respect what you hear, it really is as simple as that.

As far as frame of refrence goes, we do have a frame of refrence, which is the entire calatlog of Prince's music, both released and unreleased. Sure there are examples of reverb that he used, Damn U, God, Crucial, Purple Rain, and others, but they are mostly on slow songs and used sparingly, and smartly, to immerse the listener even further. With these new releases, we have willy nilly dipping of his vocals and the music at times in that heavy chorus like church effect, and when it comes to songs like Sex Shooter, Jumgle Love, The Glamorous life, etc, with these fast songs, funk songs, there is no historical example of Prince ever adding this heavy reverb to tracks like this, on his released, or unreleased stuff. Instead of immersing the listener, these additions do the exact opposite, it makes it sound karaoke as I have stated before. A tight funk song demands tight sounding funk vocals, not vocals with bleeding reverb. Prince would be appalled at how his music is being curated.

Lastly, we do know what he would have thought about the music in its post curated form, because we do have those historical examples, as released, and unreleased music. All one has to do is look at the historical document, and how Prince would have felt should be very clear. And to those curating his music, that is all you need to do as well. Stop disrespecting his music and take better care on future releases please, this process is about Prince, and Prince only. Nothing has to be re-invented, especially considering that whatever song you are curating, is literally the instruction manual of how Prince wanted things.




[Edited 12/10/19 19:51pm]

Great response. As I said before, it doesn't bother me too much. I'm just putting ideas and questions out there to play devil's advocate.

RIP sad
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Reply #35 posted 12/11/19 3:12am

LoveGalore

Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....

.

Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.

.

Drastically edited runtimes of (at least) Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Glamorous Life.

.

Noon Rendezvous oddly reworked into a drastically different song.

.

Nothing Compares 2 U with Paul and Susannah background vocals - bizarre choice.

.

100MPH with an almost unlistenable mix due to a variety of reasons - most glaringly, reverb.

.

Strange mix of Can't Stop This Feeling I Got with his vocals buried.

.

Vocals buried in Feel U Up, poor transitioning to Irresistible Bitch.

.

Bizarre choice to unite differently-sourced versions of Our Destiny and Roadhouse Garden into a single track.

.

Sourcing a lossy copy of Velvet Kitty Cat.

.

Painfully sharp/crisp cymbals on Wonderful Ass.

.

Incomplete version of Dance Electric.

.

Erotic City with a gnarly drop out.

.

Anything I'm missing?

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Reply #36 posted 12/11/19 4:21am

leadline

avatar

LoveGalore said:

Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....

.

Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.

.

Drastically edited runtimes of (at least) Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Glamorous Life.

.

Noon Rendezvous oddly reworked into a drastically different song.

.

Nothing Compares 2 U with Paul and Susannah background vocals - bizarre choice.

.

100MPH with an almost unlistenable mix due to a variety of reasons - most glaringly, reverb.

.

Strange mix of Can't Stop This Feeling I Got with his vocals buried.

.

Vocals buried in Feel U Up, poor transitioning to Irresistible Bitch.

.

Bizarre choice to unite differently-sourced versions of Our Destiny and Roadhouse Garden into a single track.

.

Sourcing a lossy copy of Velvet Kitty Cat.

.

Painfully sharp/crisp cymbals on Wonderful Ass.

.

Incomplete version of Dance Electric.

.

Erotic City with a gnarly drop out.

.

Anything I'm missing?


Agree with ALL of these, but I have bolded the ones that are the most frustrating for me personally.

The reverb, well, I have gone into detail about that in prior posts so wont elaborate here, but clearly, that is tippity top on my 'wtf happened here' list.

Buried vocals, a travesty, how could they let this happen?

Wonderful Ass - truly unlistenable due to the ear bleeding highs.

[Edited 12/11/19 4:22am]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #37 posted 12/11/19 7:07am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:

Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....

.

Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.

.

Drastically edited runtimes of (at least) Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Glamorous Life.

.

Noon Rendezvous oddly reworked into a drastically different song.

.

Nothing Compares 2 U with Paul and Susannah background vocals - bizarre choice.

.


So what exists in the vault for these? Are there any versions of Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Galmorous Life with Prince vocals in different lengths? Or are you just comparing to the released tracks on the protege albums?

Do you really think Noon Rendezvous was oddly reworked by someone, or isn't it more likely that this Prince version existed like this in the vault?

Regarding versions with 'bizarre choices' for background vocals. Do these songs exist in the vault in other configurations?

RIP sad
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Reply #38 posted 12/11/19 7:19am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said:

Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....

.

Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.

.

Drastically edited runtimes of (at least) Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Glamorous Life.

.

Noon Rendezvous oddly reworked into a drastically different song.

.

Nothing Compares 2 U with Paul and Susannah background vocals - bizarre choice.

.


So what exists in the vault for these? Are there any versions of Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Galmorous Life with Prince vocals in different lengths? Or are you just comparing to the released tracks on the protege albums?

Do you really think Noon Rendezvous was oddly reworked by someone, or isn't it more likely that this Prince version existed like this in the vault?

Regarding versions with 'bizarre choices' for background vocals. Do these songs exist in the vault in other configurations?

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

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Reply #39 posted 12/11/19 10:21am

jfenster

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:


So what exists in the vault for these? Are there any versions of Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Galmorous Life with Prince vocals in different lengths? Or are you just comparing to the released tracks on the protege albums?

Do you really think Noon Rendezvous was oddly reworked by someone, or isn't it more likely that this Prince version existed like this in the vault?

Regarding versions with 'bizarre choices' for background vocals. Do these songs exist in the vault in other configurations?

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

and yet the elitists wont release these versions

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Reply #40 posted 12/11/19 3:55pm

LoveGalore

jfenster said:

LoveGalore said:

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

and yet the elitists wont release these versions

It's "not their responsibility" lol

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Reply #41 posted 12/11/19 11:39pm

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:



TheEnglishGent said:




LoveGalore said:


Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....


.


Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.


.


Drastically edited runtimes of (at least) Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Glamorous Life.


.


Noon Rendezvous oddly reworked into a drastically different song.


.


Nothing Compares 2 U with Paul and Susannah background vocals - bizarre choice.


.





So what exists in the vault for these? Are there any versions of Gigolos, Sex Shooter, Galmorous Life with Prince vocals in different lengths? Or are you just comparing to the released tracks on the protege albums?

Do you really think Noon Rendezvous was oddly reworked by someone, or isn't it more likely that this Prince version existed like this in the vault?

Regarding versions with 'bizarre choices' for background vocals. Do these songs exist in the vault in other configurations?




Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).


.


Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).


.


Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.


.


ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]


Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?
RIP sad
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Reply #42 posted 12/12/19 12:59am

leadline

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said:

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?


I think the main issue at heart here is the speculation that many of these songs are being truncated and/or altered, from their original version. I am personally cool with any length of a particular song being released, as long as it is the same version they found in the vault.

Aside from giving Prince's music the triple dip reverb special extraordinaire over the top upside down surpise special treatment, they do seem to also be taking liberties in editing as well. For me, that is not cool, as I believe all the music should be released as it is found, a pure representation of how Prince left it. There is simply no reason to alter what is there by cutting out verses or sections of music. It would be like someone painting over sections of the most historic and exquisite works of art because they personally like it better that way, or, because they feel the audience for that art would enjoy it more. A crime right? The artist completed the art, it is their vision and theirs alone, and the audience can make of it what they will. To alter an artists work is presumption and arrogance on a grand scale. It surprises me that the estate lets this happen, both the audio and time editing liberties.

We could talk about many songs here, but specifically Purple Music comes to mind, it is shorter than the version we have known for decades, but this is where it gets tricky, because perhaps the released version is an alternate version Prince had in the vault, or, perhaps the curators edited it themselves. If it is the latter, I would love to know their reasoning for it.

Playing devils advocate, there is also the possibility that the tape itself was compromised, or, perhaps even the engineers mishandled it, forcing the edits that we are hearing on some of these tracks.

This aspect is much more difficult to ascertain than the very obvious reverb/chourus/church effect issue.


"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #43 posted 12/12/19 1:45am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

leadline said:

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said: Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?


I think the main issue at heart here is the speculation that many of these songs are being truncated and/or altered, from their original version. I am personally cool with any length of a particular song being released, as long as it is the same version they found in the vault.

Aside from giving Prince's music the triple dip reverb special extraordinaire over the top upside down surpise special treatment, they do seem to also be taking liberties in editing as well. For me, that is not cool, as I believe all the music should be released as it is found, a pure representation of how Prince left it. There is simply no reason to alter what is there by cutting out verses or sections of music. It would be like someone painting over sections of the most historic and exquisite works of art because they personally like it better that way, or, because they feel the audience for that art would enjoy it more. A crime right? The artist completed the art, it is their vision and theirs alone, and the audience can make of it what they will. To alter an artists work is presumption and arrogance on a grand scale. It surprises me that the estate lets this happen, both the audio and time editing liberties.

We could talk about many songs here, but specifically Purple Music comes to mind, it is shorter than the version we have known for decades, but this is where it gets tricky, because perhaps the released version is an alternate version Prince had in the vault, or, perhaps the curators edited it themselves. If it is the latter, I would love to know their reasoning for it.

Playing devils advocate, there is also the possibility that the tape itself was compromised, or, perhaps even the engineers mishandled it, forcing the edits that we are hearing on some of these tracks.

This aspect is much more difficult to ascertain than the very obvious reverb/chourus/church effect issue.


Completely agree with your post here. The biggest issue with all the complaints regarding editing and alternate versions is that they are mostly conjecture and speculation. If the estate are editing the tracks to get them to us then this is wrong, but until they say this is what has happened it is only speculation on our part. Like you say, it is certainly possible that these alternate takes exist in the vault or that other tapes are diminished. If there's a dozen versions of Purple Music they have to pick one. Maybe they're simply making conscious decisions not to release something which is already widely circulating and giving us different versions on purpose? I certainly don't need officially released versions of every bootleg I have, I listened to them all plenty as it is.

RIP sad
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Reply #44 posted 12/12/19 2:05am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said:

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?

Just to be clear, when I say a version's length is edited I am saying that the same version on Originals exists in a longer form. This is different than something like Purple Music, where there is a fully produced version of a song in the vault intended for release at some point (in PM's case, a club 12") that Prince scrapped.

.

Gigolos keeps going beyond the fade out. I can't really think of a reason that if that version and a 4 minute version exists, you choose the 4 minute version. One could argue that Glamorous Life existed as a 4 minute track because Prince says something inaudible in the intro of the released version that is not present on the 8 minute version. So now we must then presume that Prince took the 8 minute cut we have, edited it to 4 minutes, and ADDED some adlib in the beginning. Interesting because the song was never intended for him (it was written with a female lead in mind - Jill Jones, Apollonia 6, and Sheila E all had vocals added at some point). But hey. I suppose anything is possible. smile

.

Leadline pretty much covered everything else I could say on the topic. I'll just add that my own personal preference is that album versions of songs are unedited (and unadulterated beyond what is actually on the reference - something they say they are doing, but we know is not 100% the case).

.

I can't imagine them cutting We Can Fuck or Dance Electric to 4 minutes because, hey, it fits an album better.

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Reply #45 posted 12/12/19 2:33am

Handel

LoveGalore said:

Also - along with abstaining from adding effects that aren't present on the masters... Can we avoid the weird editing of songs or reworking of them or....

.

Baby You're A Trip with Jill Jones vocals - bizarre choice.

.

I fully concur with this one being a bizarre choice.

.

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Reply #46 posted 12/12/19 2:59am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said: Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?

Just to be clear, when I say a version's length is edited I am saying that the same version on Originals exists in a longer form. This is different than something like Purple Music, where there is a fully produced version of a song in the vault intended for release at some point (in PM's case, a club 12") that Prince scrapped.

.

Gigolos keeps going beyond the fade out. I can't really think of a reason that if that version and a 4 minute version exists, you choose the 4 minute version. One could argue that Glamorous Life existed as a 4 minute track because Prince says something inaudible in the intro of the released version that is not present on the 8 minute version. So now we must then presume that Prince took the 8 minute cut we have, edited it to 4 minutes, and ADDED some adlib in the beginning. Interesting because the song was never intended for him (it was written with a female lead in mind - Jill Jones, Apollonia 6, and Sheila E all had vocals added at some point). But hey. I suppose anything is possible. smile

.

Leadline pretty much covered everything else I could say on the topic. I'll just add that my own personal preference is that album versions of songs are unedited (and unadulterated beyond what is actually on the reference - something they say they are doing, but we know is not 100% the case).

.

I can't imagine them cutting We Can Fuck or Dance Electric to 4 minutes because, hey, it fits an album better.

I never listened to The Time albums much and not for a long time, so I had to check. Gigolos on Originals is the same length and fades the at the same point as it does on What Time Is It, so it makes complete sense in terms of the Originals concept. The versions on originals must surely exist in the vault being the same as the released version by The Time. There's zero conspiracy to be found with this one regarding the estate releasing an 'edited' version as it's the exact original of the released album version. Now I'm obviously not saying that there's no longer version in the vault but there was no reason to release that version on Originals.

RIP sad
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Reply #47 posted 12/12/19 3:40am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:



LoveGalore said:




TheEnglishGent said:


LoveGalore said: Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?

Just to be clear, when I say a version's length is edited I am saying that the same version on Originals exists in a longer form. This is different than something like Purple Music, where there is a fully produced version of a song in the vault intended for release at some point (in PM's case, a club 12") that Prince scrapped.


.


Gigolos keeps going beyond the fade out. I can't really think of a reason that if that version and a 4 minute version exists, you choose the 4 minute version. One could argue that Glamorous Life existed as a 4 minute track because Prince says something inaudible in the intro of the released version that is not present on the 8 minute version. So now we must then presume that Prince took the 8 minute cut we have, edited it to 4 minutes, and ADDED some adlib in the beginning. Interesting because the song was never intended for him (it was written with a female lead in mind - Jill Jones, Apollonia 6, and Sheila E all had vocals added at some point). But hey. I suppose anything is possible. smile


.


Leadline pretty much covered everything else I could say on the topic. I'll just add that my own personal preference is that album versions of songs are unedited (and unadulterated beyond what is actually on the reference - something they say they are doing, but we know is not 100% the case).


.


I can't imagine them cutting We Can Fuck or Dance Electric to 4 minutes because, hey, it fits an album better.




I never listened to The Time albums much and not for a long time, so I had to check. Gigolos on Originals is the same length and fades the at the same point as it does on What Time Is It, so it makes complete sense in terms of the Originals concept. The versions on originals must surely exist in the vault being the same as the released version by The Time. There's zero conspiracy to be found with this one regarding the estate releasing an 'edited' version as it's the exact original of the released album version. Now I'm obviously not saying that there's no longer version in the vault but there was no reason to release that version on Originals.



Conspiracy is a strong word. I dunno the point of arguing against longer versions sitting on the tape. To me, it's a no brainer. The concept of Originals is his version of the song. His version is 9 minutes.
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Reply #48 posted 12/12/19 4:40am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:

I never listened to The Time albums much and not for a long time, so I had to check. Gigolos on Originals is the same length and fades the at the same point as it does on What Time Is It, so it makes complete sense in terms of the Originals concept. The versions on originals must surely exist in the vault being the same as the released version by The Time. There's zero conspiracy to be found with this one regarding the estate releasing an 'edited' version as it's the exact original of the released album version. Now I'm obviously not saying that there's no longer version in the vault but there was no reason to release that version on Originals.

Conspiracy is a strong word. I dunno the point of arguing against longer versions sitting on the tape. To me, it's a no brainer. The concept of Originals is his version of the song. His version is 9 minutes.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, we have the 'original' of what appeared on the Time's album.

RIP sad
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Reply #49 posted 12/12/19 4:47am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:



LoveGalore said:


TheEnglishGent said:



I never listened to The Time albums much and not for a long time, so I had to check. Gigolos on Originals is the same length and fades the at the same point as it does on What Time Is It, so it makes complete sense in terms of the Originals concept. The versions on originals must surely exist in the vault being the same as the released version by The Time. There's zero conspiracy to be found with this one regarding the estate releasing an 'edited' version as it's the exact original of the released album version. Now I'm obviously not saying that there's no longer version in the vault but there was no reason to release that version on Originals.



Conspiracy is a strong word. I dunno the point of arguing against longer versions sitting on the tape. To me, it's a no brainer. The concept of Originals is his version of the song. His version is 9 minutes.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, we have the 'original' of what appeared on the Time's album.


How does that theory work for Glamorous Life and Sex Shooter?
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Reply #50 posted 12/12/19 6:01am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, we have the 'original' of what appeared on the Time's album.

How does that theory work for Glamorous Life and Sex Shooter?


Well, they on the Time's album.

RIP sad
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Reply #51 posted 12/12/19 6:10am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said: How does that theory work for Glamorous Life and Sex Shooter?


Well, they on the Time's album.

Got it - so at least for Gigolos Get Lonely Too, we can let the conspiracy rest. But for literally every other song on the set, lol...

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Reply #52 posted 12/12/19 8:33am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:


Well, they on the Time's album.

Got it - so at least for Gigolos Get Lonely Too, we can let the conspiracy rest. But for literally every other song on the set, lol...

For every other song on the set we now have an official version. Bootleggers have an unofficial version, which one is 'right'?

RIP sad
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Reply #53 posted 12/12/19 8:37am

LoveGalore

TheEnglishGent said:



LoveGalore said:




TheEnglishGent said:




Well, they on the Time's album.




Got it - so at least for Gigolos Get Lonely Too, we can let the conspiracy rest. But for literally every other song on the set, lol...



For every other song on the set we now have an official version. Bootleggers have an unofficial version, which one is 'right'?



In that case, refer back to the list I wrote. For some, it is incontrovertible. Baby You're A Trip should not have Jill's vocals.
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Reply #54 posted 12/12/19 8:55am

lurker316

avatar

bonatoc said:

rdhull said:

echo


Nope. That would be "Delay".

Here's Borat third degree cousin to explain:

https://www.youtube.com/w...CUUu96PYjo




I watched that video and it supports rdhull's postiion -- in layman's terms reverb is echo.

The distinction the musician in this video draws is betgween reverb and echo is pendantic, which is the opposit of layman's.

Reverb and echo both mean sound bouncing off a flat surface and repeating. Period. It's that simple. They are literally the same.

When musicans, such as the one in this video, differentiate betwen them they are making a somewhat arbitray, subjective distinction. They're basically say:

-- "Echo" sounds like the notes are repeating in a large chamber, so there is more space between them and you can distinctly pick out the repeated notes. "Hello, hello, hello, hello..."

-- "Reverb" sounds like the notes are repeating in a small chamber, so there is no space between them and the repeating notes all blend together and get drawn out. "Hellooooooooooo..."

See, that is literally the same exact phenomonon: notes bouncing off a surface and repeating.

The only difference is how quickly the notes boucing off sufaces repeat (i.e. so quickly they blend together, which would be reverb, or with enough time they remain distinct, which would be echo).

To a layman, that difference is inconsequential and pedantic.

The disctinction is subjective because there is no objective line between the two (i.e. how much space needs to be between the repeating notes to make it echo rather than reverb).

To put it yet one more way, reverb and echo are just two ends of the same scale (the scale being notes bouncing off surfaces). To sugegst that reverb and echo are different is to suggest they are measures of different phenomonon -- but the are in fact measure of the same pheonomonon.




[Edited 12/12/19 9:05am]

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Reply #55 posted 12/12/19 9:06am

LoveGalore

lurker316 said:

bonatoc said:


Nope. That would be "Delay".

Here's Borat third degree cousin to explain:

https://www.youtube.com/w...CUUu96PYjo




I watched that video and it supports rdhull's postiion -- in layman's terms reverb is echo.

The distinction the musician in this video draws is betgween reverb and echo is pendantic, which is the opposit of layman's.

Reverb and echo both mean sound bouncing off a flat surface and repeating. Period. It's that simple. They are literally the same.

When musicans, such as the one in this video, differentiate betwen them they are making a somewhat arbitray, subjective distinction. They're basically say:

-- "Echo" sounds like the notes are repeating in a large chamber, so there is more space between them and you can distinctly pick out the repeated notes. "Hello, hello, hello, hello..."

-- "Reverb" sounds like the notes are repeating in a small chamber, so there is no space between them and the repeating notes all blend together and get drawn out. "Hellooooooooooo..."

See, that is literally the same exact phenomonon: notes bouncing off a surface and repeating.

The only difference is how quickly the notes boucing off sufaces repeat (i.e. so quickly they blend together, which would be reverb, or with enough time they remain distinct, which would be echo).

To a layman, that difference is inconsequential and pedantic.

The disctinction is subjective because there is no objective line between the two (i.e. how much space needs to be between the repeating notes to make it echo rather than reverb).




[Edited 12/12/19 9:00am]

I mean, the distinction does exist. But to underscore that distinction would then take it out of layman's terms.

.

https://www.sonic-shield....erberation

.

An echo can be heard only when the distance between the source of sound and the reflecting body is at least 17m. A reverberation can occur when a sound wave is reflected by a nearby wall.

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Reply #56 posted 12/12/19 9:13am

highcalonic

LoveGalore said:

TheEnglishGent said:

For every other song on the set we now have an official version. Bootleggers have an unofficial version, which one is 'right'?

In that case, refer back to the list I wrote. For some, it is incontrovertible. Baby You're A Trip should not have Jill's vocals.

Right 100%, "Baby, You're A Trip" should not have Jill's vocals and should have a reverb on the drumz !

"You can skate around the issue if you like,
But who's gonna get you high in the middle of the night?"
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Reply #57 posted 12/12/19 9:16am

lurker316

avatar

LoveGalore said:

lurker316 said:




I watched that video and it supports rdhull's postiion -- in layman's terms reverb is echo.

The distinction the musician in this video draws is betgween reverb and echo is pendantic, which is the opposit of layman's.

Reverb and echo both mean sound bouncing off a flat surface and repeating. Period. It's that simple. They are literally the same.

When musicans, such as the one in this video, differentiate betwen them they are making a somewhat arbitray, subjective distinction. They're basically say:

-- "Echo" sounds like the notes are repeating in a large chamber, so there is more space between them and you can distinctly pick out the repeated notes. "Hello, hello, hello, hello..."

-- "Reverb" sounds like the notes are repeating in a small chamber, so there is no space between them and the repeating notes all blend together and get drawn out. "Hellooooooooooo..."

See, that is literally the same exact phenomonon: notes bouncing off a surface and repeating.

The only difference is how quickly the notes boucing off sufaces repeat (i.e. so quickly they blend together, which would be reverb, or with enough time they remain distinct, which would be echo).

To a layman, that difference is inconsequential and pedantic.

The disctinction is subjective because there is no objective line between the two (i.e. how much space needs to be between the repeating notes to make it echo rather than reverb).




[Edited 12/12/19 9:00am]

I mean, the distinction does exist. But to underscore that distinction would then take it out of layman's terms.

.

https://www.sonic-shield....erberation

.

An echo can be heard only when the distance between the source of sound and the reflecting body is at least 17m. A reverberation can occur when a sound wave is reflected by a nearby wall.



The distinction is 100% subjective. The distintion is simply that with reverb the notes repeat faster than with echo. That is literally it. How much faster? There is no objective way to define that.

Think of it this way: "Delay" is sometimes used in place of "echo", right? Where does the term"delay" come from? It's meant to convey that the "reverbations" (i.e. the reverb) are "delayed" (i.e. spaced further apart).

In short: "echo" is "delayed" "reverb".

To put it another way, "echo" is a form of "reverb" (it's a delayed reverb). It's not a separate and disctint phenomonon. In terms of Venn Diagrams, echo would be a subset of reverb.

The difference between reverb and echo is like the differnce between cold water and hot water. They are both water, but one is vibrating faster.





















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Reply #58 posted 12/12/19 9:20am

LoveGalore

lurker316 said:

LoveGalore said:

I mean, the distinction does exist. But to underscore that distinction would then take it out of layman's terms.

.

https://www.sonic-shield....erberation

.

An echo can be heard only when the distance between the source of sound and the reflecting body is at least 17m. A reverberation can occur when a sound wave is reflected by a nearby wall.



The distinction is 100% subjective. The distintion is simply that with reverb the notes repeat faster than with echo. That is literally it. How much faster? There is no objective way to define that.

Think of it this way: "Delay" is sometimes used in place of "echo", right? Where does the term"delay" come from? It's meant to convey that the "reverbations" (i.e. the reverb) are "delayed" (i.e. spaced further apart).

In short: "echo" is "delayed" "reverb".

To put it another way, "echo" is a form of "reverb" (it's a delayed reverb). It's not a separate and disctint phenomonon. In terms of Venn Diagrams, echo would be a subset of reverb.

The difference between reverb and echo is like the differnce between cold water and hot water. They are both water, but one is vibrating faster.

If the distinction is that an echo occurs at 17m, how is that subjective? A better comparison is the difference between a glass of water and a glass of ice cubes. The water only becomes an ice cube under certain conditions.

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Reply #59 posted 12/12/19 11:42am

jfenster

TheEnglishGent said:

LoveGalore said:

Nothing Compares 2 U and Baby You're A Trip were solo performances by Prince - both of which were leaked prior to release (in the case of BYAT, for decades).

.

Gigolos, Sex Shooter, and Glamorous Life are all much longer than the versions on Originals. Sex Shooter is over 6 minutes and the other 2 are over 9. Glamorous Life leaked well before Originals in its 9 minute state and the "elite collectors" are in possession of the 9 minute Gigolos and both of Prince's versions of Sex Shooter which clock in at over 6 minutes (the original version of SS which Vanity sang, and the reworked version which both Vanity and Apollonia did vocals for - which is on Originals in edited form).

.

Yes, Noon Rendezvous either had instrumentation removed or they weren't able to find the complete version.

.

ETA: Glamorous Life is 8 minutes, my bad! smile

[Edited 12/11/19 7:30am]

Just because something is circulating to the elite that doesn’t make it the right one to release. So they have a 9 minute Gigolos, so what? What if there’s a 15 minute version in the vault? Is that the ‘right’ one because it’s the longest one?

its not for anyone but Prince to decide which is best.....so release whats there in its existing form

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