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Reply #30 posted 10/18/20 11:43am

FUNKNROLL

herb4 said:

Same thing as every other artist really. Money, plain and simple.

It's always a fine line between artistic integrity and economic reality. Most artists who've never "sold out" have never truly been asked to in my experience.

Batman was the first time I got a real whiff of it from Prince and then, D&P, while maybe not a "sell out" was obviously aimed at commercial success.

All artists are forced to compromise their vision at some point.



Totally agree. Especially about Batman. There was already huge hype anticipating The movie. Then when they announced Prince was doing the soundtrack it went through the roof. I somewhat liked The Future and, to a lesser degree, Electric Chair. I never enjoyed Batdance which, to this day, a lot of people feel strongly about.

Selling out isn’t a bad thing. It’s possible to feel good that Prince made the cash he needed so that one day he could turn out a new artistic gem at a later date.
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Reply #31 posted 10/18/20 11:53am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Prince never sold out
To some purple rain was his sell out moment as he went pop after 6 years toiling away and building up to it

But he never sold out

He just changed
He played it safer in the 90s
Which most artists do at some point in their careers

If you ask me, after warners, he never really regained his mojo .

The truth and Trc were as close as he got

But other than that, he was just playing it safe and watching the money roll in with the arena tours in the 00s and 10s
[Edited 10/18/20 11:55am]
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Reply #32 posted 10/18/20 12:07pm

SoulAlive

herb4 said:

Same thing as every other artist really. Money, plain and simple.

It's always a fine line between artistic integrity and economic reality. Most artists who've never "sold out" have never truly been asked to in my experience.

Batman was the first time I got a real whiff of it from Prince and then, D&P, while maybe not a "sell out" was obviously aimed at commercial success.

All artists are forced to compromise their vision at some point.

This is true.Most artists wants to be successful and make alot of money,whether they admit it or not.

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Reply #33 posted 10/18/20 12:14pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

He had paisley park and multiple homes, staff, an extensive lifestyle. Prince was not someone to live modestly. He loved a big pay cheque.
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Reply #34 posted 10/18/20 1:26pm

Margot

I got the impression the money was primarily to fund his creative projects unabated...videos,

endless recording/24-hr engineers, films and whatever else.

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Reply #35 posted 10/18/20 1:30pm

OperatingTheta
n

SantanaMaitreya said:

OperatingThetan said:



I appreciate your point critically, but in the UK for example, Prince's biggest selling single gig in terms of numbers and size of venue was when he sold out Wembley Stadium in 1993. His only UK number one single was 'TMBGITW' in 1994.

Yes, but how many times did he sell out Wembley Arena in 1988 & 1990? Too many to count. Let's just say that the hype was at its biggest in the late 80s and he still had success in the early 90s.


Not the arena, the stadium - 75,000 in attendance and Prince's largest UK concert.
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Reply #36 posted 10/18/20 1:33pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Margot said:

I got the impression the money was primarily to fund his creative projects unabated...videos,


endless recording/24-hr engineers, films and whatever else.



True

But he still liked/needed a big pay packet for all that

He wasnt going to downsize
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Reply #37 posted 10/18/20 3:01pm

Margot

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Margot said:

I got the impression the money was primarily to fund his creative projects unabated...videos,

endless recording/24-hr engineers, films and whatever else.

True But he still liked/needed a big pay packet for all that He wasnt going to downsize

Yes

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Reply #38 posted 10/18/20 3:04pm

Margot

Was 3EG a sell-out?

[Edited 10/18/20 15:26pm]

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Reply #39 posted 10/18/20 4:14pm

TKO

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I don't think he compromised his art AT ALL. He released a big amount of records in very short time. So D&P probably wasn't trying to be another SOTT, Dirty Mind or Purple Rain, it was just a fun record and he was showing 'You want hits, you want sales, I CAN DO IT TOO.´ And he did, he got a couple Top 5 hits on Billboard with Batman and D&P.

But don't think he was trying to do s*** music, he was doing POP. FUN, ENTERTAINING music with the Prince touch, and it worked, and it was good for business, and then later he went back to the musician side of his career, all these things can Co-exist you know?

There's no REAL Prince or Fake Prince... These are different sides from the same coin.

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Reply #40 posted 10/18/20 4:49pm

thebanishedone

But take Purple Rain album as an example where Prince didn't make too many compromises ,yet it's his best selling album.ony half of the album are classic pop hits but we cant say the same for Computer Blue,Darling Nikki ,The Beautiful Ones and even Purple Rain were not your average pop hits.If you compare Purple Rain and Diamonds and Pearls albums you can see how conventional Prince had become starting with the 90s.Or maybe the reason for taking weirdness out from his music is because he changed the way he writes music.
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Reply #41 posted 10/18/20 5:27pm

rednblue

Since people are talking D and P, how about Thunder? I love it, though I get the sense that there's plenty of fans that find it cheesy and don't like it at all.

Whether people are into the song or not, does that song contribute to the idea that D and P was about going more mainstream for commercial success? Maybe it should be obvious, but I live under enough of a rock to often have no clue of where mainstream is, or isn't.

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Reply #42 posted 10/18/20 11:01pm

MattyJam

avatar

rednblue said:

Since people are talking D and P, how about Thunder? I love it, though I get the sense that there's plenty of fans that find it cheesy and don't like it at all.

Whether people are into the song or not, does that song contribute to the idea that D and P was about going more mainstream for commercial success? Maybe it should be obvious, but I live under enough of a rock to often have no clue of where mainstream is, or isn't.



Thunder is one of those "tacky" Prince songs, that I would put in a category with Arms of Orion, My Name Is Prince, Graffiti Bridge and New Power Generation. Gold very narrowly escapes falling into this category, but gets a pass as its a much better song than the others I mentioned. But in general, his songwriting definitely became markedly less sophisticated after Lovesexy.
[Edited 10/19/20 0:21am]
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Reply #43 posted 10/19/20 12:27am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

In the 80s prince wasnt trying to fit in

In the 90s he was

Still prince, he couldnt erase himself,but he was def trying to show that he wasnt that weird like ppl thought
In the 80s he didnt care what ppl thought, I got the feeling he started to care more and more after that. To show he wasnt that diff. He wanted acceptance. And esp in America. Which he finally got in 2004. The 20th anniversary of PR. He was playing to huge crowds in the US like in 84. Its what he was desp to have again.

The other thing about him is that he lived to work. New album meant a new tour. He needed to keep that going over and over. How that transpired became less important after the 90s, or def after TRC, when it became less about the music,more about playing live, he jist needed to be out there performing.
[Edited 10/19/20 0:28am]
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Reply #44 posted 10/19/20 2:28am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

The other thing about him is that he lived to work. New album meant a new tour. He needed to keep that going over and over. How that transpired became less important after the 90s, or def after TRC, when it became less about the music,more about playing live, he jist needed to be out there performing.

.

Where do you lot get this nonsense about Prince loving to perform live? There are entire years where he barely got on a stage.

.

In an era where artists tour an album for two years and actually play all over the world, Prince's tours often were short and limited. How many of his European tours consist of him visiting barely a handful of countries? How many American tours consist of him visiting barely a dozen cities? How often has Prince performed in South America? In Asia? In Eastern Europe? His "21 nights" residency in LA only reaches that number if you include a TV performance.

.

For comparison: The Ramones played 2263 concerts in their career, on average more than 100/year. Grateful Dead performed 2318 concerts. Roger Waters did 219 concerts in 2010-13 performing The Wall. Metallica played 170+ concerts on their Wherever We May Roam Tour in 1991-92 and they have several other equally lengthy tours: https://en.wikipedia.org/...cert_tours . Ed Sheeran did almost 260 concerts in 2017-2019 on a single tour.

.

http://www.princevault.co...l_Concerts Look at 2005, 2008 or 2009 for examples of particularly meager years. Or even 1987, where the SOTT Tour lasted barely two months.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #45 posted 10/19/20 3:08am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

um lets see, i wasnt talking about the scale of tours, but the fact, for him, a new album meant a new tour design/presentation etc to think about and mount.

he toured almost every year in the 80s.

in the 90s, as you can see on princevault, there is barely a year when he wasnt touring or performing live.

in the 00s, he did one of his biggest US tours in years

in 2006/07 he was back touring there again

as he got older its inevitable he would scale back tours, partly as he wasnt releasing big records to generate the publicity he needed to sell out big venues. but he never stopped touring or performing live.

so the question is where do you get the nonsense idea he didnt like performing live?

[Edited 10/19/20 3:10am]

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Reply #46 posted 10/19/20 5:12am

thebanishedone

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

um lets see, i wasnt talking about the scale of tours, but the fact, for him, a new album meant a new tour design/presentation etc to think about and mount.

he toured almost every year in the 80s.

in the 90s, as you can see on princevault, there is barely a year when he wasnt touring or performing live.

in the 00s, he did one of his biggest US tours in years

in 2006/07 he was back touring there again

as he got older its inevitable he would scale back tours, partly as he wasnt releasing big records to generate the publicity he needed to sell out big venues. but he never stopped touring or performing live.

so the question is where do you get the nonsense idea he didnt like performing live?

[Edited 10/19/20 3:10am]

He did like performing live but he didnt have a big worldwide tour since Purple Rain tour. all his latter tours were short

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Reply #47 posted 10/19/20 5:24am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

um lets see, i wasnt talking about the scale of tours, but the fact, for him, a new album meant a new tour design/presentation etc to think about and mount.

.

That stopped a loooong time ago. In later years they were mostly flimsy excuses, and often "tours" weren't connected to an album and seemed more a case of "ooh I gotta pay some bills lemme do a bunch of GH shows".

.

he toured almost every year in the 80s.

.

In 1989 the only tour dates were the Japan Lovesexy gigs, which he was basically forced to do by his accountants to fill the financial hole he had dug. Other than that: a couple of guest appearances.

.

in the 90s, as you can see on princevault, there is barely a year when he wasnt touring or performing live.

.

Some of those years are pretty smil, e.g. only a handful of one-off gigs in 1991.

.

as he got older its inevitable he would scale back tours, partly as he wasnt releasing big records to generate the publicity he needed to sell out big venues. but he never stopped touring or performing live.

so the question is where do you get the nonsense idea he didnt like performing live?

.

His 2003 "world tour" lasted two weeks. In 2012 he again only did a two week tour, and other than that a handful of shows. Etc etc etc.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #48 posted 10/19/20 5:51am

Vannormal

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

The other thing about him is that he lived to work. New album meant a new tour. He needed to keep that going over and over. How that transpired became less important after the 90s, or def after TRC, when it became less about the music,more about playing live, he jist needed to be out there performing.

.

Where do you lot get this nonsense about Prince loving to perform live? There are entire years where he barely got on a stage.

.

In an era where artists tour an album for two years and actually play all over the world, Prince's tours often were short and limited. How many of his European tours consist of him visiting barely a handful of countries? How many American tours consist of him visiting barely a dozen cities? How often has Prince performed in South America? In Asia? In Eastern Europe? His "21 nights" residency in LA only reaches that number if you include a TV performance.

.

For comparison: The Ramones played 2263 concerts in their career, on average more than 100/year. Grateful Dead performed 2318 concerts. Roger Waters did 219 concerts in 2010-13 performing The Wall. Metallica played 170+ concerts on their Wherever We May Roam Tour in 1991-92 and they have several other equally lengthy tours: https://en.wikipedia.org/...cert_tours . Ed Sheeran did almost 260 concerts in 2017-2019 on a single tour.

.

http://www.princevault.co...l_Concerts Look at 2005, 2008 or 2009 for examples of particularly meager years. Or even 1987, where the SOTT Tour lasted barely two months.

-

From the very beginning it was clear that Prince wasn't the kind to do 2318 concerts with the release of any album he did.

It became clear that he was far to creative for that - which got in his way if you will.

He just consumed time to the utmost possible, super demanding, didn't want anyone in the way, and kept that pace even beyond his most prolific peak.

Not to forget he became kind of a spoiled brat if you will after PR.

I truly believe he somehow got alienated from the world and the music scene later in his career, but that's another story.

-

Don't forget that he rehearsed exhaustively for each tour. Even so annoying that most of his band members hated it, that's what I read somewhere.

That's on of the reasons why he prefered super skilled musicians instead of creative ones, or those who were able to bring in something he did nog know.

He wasn't the kind to keep a long interest span on whatever too - it's clearly being documented by others.

He wanted it all and fast, and being super competitive on top of all that.

He just couldn't think things over and obviously resulted in the choices he made through his lifetime.

You can agree with that or you can be against it. (I also did not always agreed upon his made decisions.)

-

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #49 posted 10/19/20 5:58am

Vannormal

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

um lets see, i wasnt talking about the scale of tours, but the fact, for him, a new album meant a new tour design/presentation etc to think about and mount.

.

That stopped a loooong time ago. In later years they were mostly flimsy excuses, and often "tours" weren't connected to an album and seemed more a case of "ooh I gotta pay some bills lemme do a bunch of GH shows".

.

.

Some of those years are pretty smil, e.g. only a handful of one-off gigs in 1991.

.

as he got older its inevitable he would scale back tours, partly as he wasnt releasing big records to generate the publicity he needed to sell out big venues. but he never stopped touring or performing live.

so the question is where do you get the nonsense idea he didnt like performing live?

.

His 2003 "world tour" lasted two weeks. In 2012 he again only did a two week tour, and other than that a handful of shows. Etc etc etc.

-

Bart is absolutely right.

More than often he needed the money from his too short tours.

Prince had more than once financial problems in his life. It is known.

And most of the time he got back up.

And when he got some extras, of he went again doing his same old self.

I sometimes even wonder if his last assembled 'bands' came from that choice.

At some on and off performances he had a bigger band.

Same thought about his last P&M tour - imho of course.

If you see the pictures from the investigation, and how Paisley Park looked like in the end...

to me it all looked very badly maintained. He lived there in the end...

Although I'm not an expert, I could be completely wrong on his financial part.

-

[Edited 10/19/20 6:00am]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #50 posted 10/19/20 6:02am

SquirrelMeat76

Diamonds & Pearls was a lot different than what came before. Even the Batman soundtrack although associated with the biggest film of the year, was still Prince being Prince with a couple of diversions (Arms of Orion & Batdance).

D&P was a whole shift. Even the non rap stuff like Cream, Thunder & Money Don't Matter 2 Nite felt Prince-Lite. No strange instrumentation or oblique lyrics. Nothing wrong with this of course, but as a fan I didn't really like it. Even though Purple Rain was massive, it didn't sound like a commercial album, or Prince striving for a hit. It was more guitar orientated than 1999, but that was it. it just happened to have some killer songs that crossed over.

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Reply #51 posted 10/19/20 6:03am

heartpeaceshea
rt

thebanishedone said:

During the whole decade of the 80's Prince was redefining musical landscapes


without any fear he was pushing the enveloupe.


But starting with the 1991 Diamonds And Pearls Prince incorporated rap into his sound


and overall dumbed his sound to make it safe.I think we can agree


that Diamonds And Pearls is Prince at his safest ,a far cry from the 1980-1988 daring artist.


Why Prince start with compromises when it comes to his music?


Was it being disillusion with his own vision?


Getting scared from the new sounds coming from the streets that he couldn't relate to?


Financial loss from commercial flops of his projects or something else?



Siouxie, in good fun I want to say you made him do that but for you nobody was willing to do the work. Your topic is classic literature cliffs notes style of engagement and I would like to say good job on that.
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Reply #52 posted 10/19/20 6:04am

jaawwnn

avatar

To sellout implies making music you don't believe in for the sake of cash and I don't think he ever did that. He did occasionally give people what he thought they wanted, with a Princely twist on top, and he seemed to always expect to sell Purple Rain numbers on those occasions, but Diamonds & Pearls seems to have been the only time it inarguably worked.

[Edited 10/19/20 6:05am]

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Reply #53 posted 10/19/20 6:06am

herb4

avatar

TKO said:

I don't think he compromised his art AT ALL. He released a big amount of records in very short time. So D&P probably wasn't trying to be another SOTT, Dirty Mind or Purple Rain, it was just a fun record and he was showing 'You want hits, you want sales, I CAN DO IT TOO.´ And he did, he got a couple Top 5 hits on Billboard with Batman and D&P.

But don't think he was trying to do s*** music, he was doing POP. FUN, ENTERTAINING music with the Prince touch, and it worked, and it was good for business, and then later he went back to the musician side of his career, all these things can Co-exist you know?

There's no REAL Prince or Fake Prince... These are different sides from the same coin.


I don't think anyone is calling his more commercials endeavors "shit", just maybe not as challenging or daring as some of his other efforts. I don't see anyone making the argument that his pop music was bad aside from a lot of the substandard rap elements. I liked a lot of Prince's pop songs (and like a lot of pop music in general) and Prince was very good at it.

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Reply #54 posted 10/19/20 6:14am

LoveGalore

SquirrelMeat76 said:

Diamonds & Pearls was a lot different than what came before. Even the Batman soundtrack although associated with the biggest film of the year, was still Prince being Prince with a couple of diversions (Arms of Orion & Batdance).


D&P was a whole shift. Even the non rap stuff like Cream, Thunder & Money Don't Matter 2 Nite felt Prince-Lite. No strange instrumentation or oblique lyrics. Nothing wrong with this of course, but as a fan I didn't really like it. Even though Purple Rain was massive, it didn't sound like a commercial album, or Prince striving for a hit. It was more guitar orientated than 1999, but that was it. it just happened to have some killer songs that crossed over.



Cream is a genius track that has so many brilliant production choices that I'm surprised anyone would think it is P by the numbers. What other songs set the groundwork for Cream?
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Reply #55 posted 10/19/20 6:22am

thebanishedone

LoveGalore said:

SquirrelMeat76 said:

Diamonds & Pearls was a lot different than what came before. Even the Batman soundtrack although associated with the biggest film of the year, was still Prince being Prince with a couple of diversions (Arms of Orion & Batdance).

D&P was a whole shift. Even the non rap stuff like Cream, Thunder & Money Don't Matter 2 Nite felt Prince-Lite. No strange instrumentation or oblique lyrics. Nothing wrong with this of course, but as a fan I didn't really like it. Even though Purple Rain was massive, it didn't sound like a commercial album, or Prince striving for a hit. It was more guitar orientated than 1999, but that was it. it just happened to have some killer songs that crossed over.

Cream is a genius track that has so many brilliant production choices that I'm surprised anyone would think it is P by the numbers. What other songs set the groundwork for Cream?

Bang A Gong by T Rex?

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Reply #56 posted 10/19/20 6:32am

jaawwnn

avatar

thebanishedone said:

LoveGalore said:

SquirrelMeat76 said: Cream is a genius track that has so many brilliant production choices that I'm surprised anyone would think it is P by the numbers. What other songs set the groundwork for Cream?

Bang A Gong by T Rex?

People always say that, and while it may be an influence I think it's oversold, Get it On is a standard boogie rocker that was already a throwback in that it quotes Chuck Berry itself, I'm inclined to think Prince was going for that Addicted to Love money with the big production on a simple rocknroll song, expensive video with sexy women dancing in it, and THIS IS A HIT SINGLE YOU IDIOTS stamped all over it.



[Edited 10/19/20 6:34am]

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Reply #57 posted 10/19/20 6:35am

thebanishedone

jaawwnn said:



thebanishedone said:




LoveGalore said:


SquirrelMeat76 said: Cream is a genius track that has so many brilliant production choices that I'm surprised anyone would think it is P by the numbers. What other songs set the groundwork for Cream?

Bang A Gong by T Rex?



People always say that, and while it may be an influence I think it's oversold, Get it On is a standard boogie rocker that was already a throwback in that it quotes Chuck Berry itself, I'm inclined to think Prince was going for that Addicted to Love money with the big production, expensive video with sexy women dancing in it and THIS IS A HIT SINGLE YOU IDIOTS stamped all over it.



[Edited 10/19/20 6:32am]

well u are right that its not a carbon copy but its influenced by it
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Reply #58 posted 10/19/20 6:36am

MattyJam

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jaawwnn said:

thebanishedone said:

Bang A Gong by T Rex?

People always say that, and while it may be an influence I think it's oversold, Get it On is a standard boogie rocker that was already a throwback in that it quotes Chuck Berry itself, I'm inclined to think Prince was going for that Addicted to Love money with the big production on a simple rocknroll song, expensive video with sexy women dancing in it, and THIS IS A HIT SINGLE YOU IDIOTS stamped all over it.



Ha, made me chuckle! lol

It's funny cuz it's true.

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Reply #59 posted 10/19/20 6:47am

CynicKill

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Insecurity Second guessing himself Competitiveness and needing to get a hit both for his ego and to pay the paisley park Bill's Not selling as much as in 84. He kept trying to get back to that. But also, prince has always been a pop artist. Hes always thinking commercially. Left field indie artistry was never going to be fir him. He wanted to be popular, not underground or obscure. He needed that. All that happened was that in the 90s he stopped caring about art and just wanted to be an entertainer. Still in his own way but he didnt want to expand his music or risk very much anymore. He didnt have that confidence with his sales down.

I disagree with this statement, and if it's true he didn't try that hard.

It seems he did everything the dismantle and distance himself from the success of 1984.

Maybe he tried to recapture it in the 90's, but with the material he was releasing, as opposed to what he knew people wanted from him?

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