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Reply #210 posted 10/31/20 9:57pm

rednblue

JudasLChrist said:

rednblue said:

JudasLChrist noted "vile shit" upthread. I find him a thoughtful guy, and I'd much like to hear his elaborated thoughts. Are you still here, JudasLChrist?

I had wondered earlier if what Judas and others had in mind might include Prince comments that "MIGHT be interpreted as appreciation for people not having a choice as to which religion, or lack thereof, they outwardly express."

Which is (of course) different from "a record album with 'religious' themes that you dont agree with."

A side note: As an agnositic heathen, I find that religious people are SOMETIMES less distressed in addressing me than they are in addressing people of denominations/religions different from their own. Maybe it's 'cause lost causes like me aren't worth getting worked up over. lol


The thing about Muslim societies thing that he talked about in an interview that you are referring to is vile, but also his JW lite-jazz album where gets anti-semetic is also vile. I have no qualms calling that record out other than I don't want to get into it with 2000s-era die-hards here on the org again. Asking Wendy and Lisa to denounce Judaism, their homosexuality and convert to JW was vile. Total fallen hero shit in my eyes. The homophobic comments he had to have his publicist retract were vile. The way he treated Mayte when she wouldn't convert was vile. "A New Theocratic Order" was beyond vile. it went beyond "these are my religious beliefs" into awful politics that effect people. I was so shocked by it at the time that I actually stopped buying Prince records.

I won't support a theofascist, even it's Prince. Thankfully, he eventually calmed the fuck down on all that shit, even if he didn't exactly make good with the people he hurt in the process.



Thank you so much for your thoughts! Don't blame you in the least for not wanting to set in motion debate cycles traversed many times over.

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Reply #211 posted 10/31/20 11:25pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

There was also the whole not getting mayte medical help she needed cos JW believe in letting nature take its course. Gotta respect peoples beliefs but isnt that maytes decision too?
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Reply #212 posted 11/01/20 9:19am

JudasLChrist

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funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

There was also the whole not getting mayte medical help she needed cos JW believe in letting nature take its course. Gotta respect peoples beliefs but isnt that maytes decision too?


It is, but this is that thing about power dynamics that people talk about. Prince pulled her from a crowd when she was 16 had a quasi-relationship with her till she was 18 and then was dating her until she was married and pregnant at 23. She went from financial independence at 16, where she had $100,000 in the bank from belly dancing, to being underpaid, broke, staffer on Prince’s payroll. Her life completely revolved around him and his work. He wasn’t someone who like to be said “no” to, either.
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Reply #213 posted 11/01/20 5:14pm

Margot

JudasLChrist said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:
There was also the whole not getting mayte medical help she needed cos JW believe in letting nature take its course. Gotta respect peoples beliefs but isnt that maytes decision too?
It is, but this is that thing about power dynamics that people talk about. Prince pulled her from a crowd when she was 16 had a quasi-relationship with her till she was 18 and then was dating her until she was married and pregnant at 23. She went from financial independence at 16, where she had $100,000 in the bank from belly dancing, to being underpaid, broke, staffer on Prince’s payroll. Her life completely revolved around him and his work. He wasn’t someone who like to be said “no” to, either.

Co-sign

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Reply #214 posted 11/04/20 6:12am

OldFriends4Sal
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joyinrepetition said:

Prince knew that rap scene was coming on strong in the early 90's, so he tried to embrace it. The mistake I think he made was not collaborating with an established rapper like LL Cool J or somebody. It would have made his efforts more legit.



INTERVIEW * MAY 1997

THE ARTIST

SL: Do you feel that you successfully incorporated rap into your music. Sometimes it felt like it was just stuck on.

the Artist: I've gotten some criticism for the rap I've chosen to put in my past work. But there again, it came during my friction years. If you notice, not a lot of that stuff is incorporated into my sets now. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you hear the new remixes we are working on. On the rap tip though, it is an old style and I have always done it kind of differently -- half sung, you know, like "Irresistible Bitch" and some of the other things I use to do.

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Reply #215 posted 11/04/20 8:10am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

OldFriends4Sale said:



joyinrepetition said:


Prince knew that rap scene was coming on strong in the early 90's, so he tried to embrace it. The mistake I think he made was not collaborating with an established rapper like LL Cool J or somebody. It would have made his efforts more legit.





INTERVIEW * MAY 1997


THE ARTIST


SL: Do you feel that you successfully incorporated rap into your music. Sometimes it felt like it was just stuck on.


the Artist: I've gotten some criticism for the rap I've chosen to put in my past work. But there again, it came during my friction years. If you notice, not a lot of that stuff is incorporated into my sets now. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you hear the new remixes we are working on. On the rap tip though, it is an old style and I have always done it kind of differently -- half sung, you know, like "Irresistible Bitch" and some of the other things I use to do.



It didnt get much better.
Just went from trying to do it in house and getting a gun mic and affecting macho BS to getting old rappers like Doug e fresh lol
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Reply #216 posted 11/04/20 1:11pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

OldFriends4Sale said:



joyinrepetition said:


Prince knew that rap scene was coming on strong in the early 90's, so he tried to embrace it. The mistake I think he made was not collaborating with an established rapper like LL Cool J or somebody. It would have made his efforts more legit.





INTERVIEW * MAY 1997


THE ARTIST


SL: Do you feel that you successfully incorporated rap into your music. Sometimes it felt like it was just stuck on.


the Artist: I've gotten some criticism for the rap I've chosen to put in my past work. But there again, it came during my friction years. If you notice, not a lot of that stuff is incorporated into my sets now. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you hear the new remixes we are working on. On the rap tip though, it is an old style and I have always done it kind of differently -- half sung, you know, like "Irresistible Bitch" and some of the other things I use to do.



It didnt get much better.
Just went from trying to do it in house and getting a gun mic and affecting macho BS to getting old rappers like Doug e fresh lol


HEY. Can someone please lock this thread? Seems like the more I log in to this site the more y'all wanna add to it but today you really got me going when you brought Dougie Fresh in the mix. Dougie Fresh is a God and y'all just seem upset that you didn't go to more shows and ya SHOULD be. There. whofarted
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Reply #217 posted 11/05/20 2:49pm

NME01

wilmer said:

I guess Prince maybe felt he needed to prove that the commercial success of Purple Rain was not a fluke. After a string of critically acclaimed but commercially disappointing albums, maybe there was even pressure from the label to put out something that re-established him as a commercially successful artist. Maybe, that's why he hired Frank DiLeo who Mike Jack had cut loose. I agree he should have reached out to a bona fide rapper. That Tony M was wack as hell.


Nail on head.

You forget just how commercially successful Purple Rain was in the US. I think that album was number one for 20+ weeks. It was THE hot film. The singles were anthems.

Diamonds was only 6 years later. The music biz was much the same (just more lucrative). 5 or 6 megastar acts. All the play for. But commercial success wasn’t a lock for him like it was Madonna, Jackson etc.

The Frank DiLeo piece is the real tell. Frank was less of a creative caretaker style manager, more a commercial bulldog.

Prince wanted to be king.
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Reply #218 posted 11/05/20 3:32pm

Milty2

Compared to Purple Rain, we would consider every subsequent Prince album as a commercial disappointment. It would make sense. But they weren't. They did sell in good numbers. They just weren't Purple Rain numbers. Far as I'm concerned, if they were in the Top 10, he did pretty good.

I said it before and I'll say it again, we all desperately wanted Prince to do well all the time. Some days he did better, some days he did not. Oh well.

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Reply #219 posted 11/06/20 8:02am

RJOrion

heartpeacesheart said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:
It didnt get much better. Just went from trying to do it in house and getting a gun mic and affecting macho BS to getting old rappers like Doug e fresh lol
HEY. Can someone please lock this thread? Seems like the more I log in to this site the more y'all wanna add to it but today you really got me going when you brought Dougie Fresh in the mix. Dougie Fresh is a God and y'all just seem upset that you didn't go to more shows and ya SHOULD be. There. whofarted

LOL...Dougie Fresh was no "God"...the brother made beats with his lips and plenty saliva...not exactly Divine skills at work right there

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Reply #220 posted 11/06/20 8:34am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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heartpeacesheart said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:
It didnt get much better. Just went from trying to do it in house and getting a gun mic and affecting macho BS to getting old rappers like Doug e fresh lol
HEY. Can someone please lock this thread? Seems like the more I log in to this site the more y'all wanna add to it but today you really got me going when you brought Dougie Fresh in the mix. Dougie Fresh is a God and y'all just seem upset that you didn't go to more shows and ya SHOULD be. There. whofarted

I saw Dougie, live in 1984 or 85 I think it was a Fresh Fest II concert

but by the time 0+> hooked up with him... it's why 0+> hooked up with him

.

When 1980s NEW BREED Prince did 'rap' it was not the genre rap, it was 'rap' like Blondi and it was twisted to mesh with Purple Music. Even the transmississipi rap on IGBABN. was something only could have happened in that 1982-1986 company

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Reply #221 posted 11/06/20 8:36am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Milty2 said:

Compared to Purple Rain, we would consider every subsequent Prince album as a commercial disappointment. It would make sense. But they weren't. They did sell in good numbers. They just weren't Purple Rain numbers. Far as I'm concerned, if they were in the Top 10, he did pretty good.

I said it before and I'll say it again, we all desperately wanted Prince to do well all the time. Some days he did better, some days he did not. Oh well.

I agree, We wanted our hero to to blow up everytime.
I still say 1986 could have been HUGE, but Prince thought Christopher and Tricky could hold it down

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Reply #222 posted 11/06/20 8:40am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

it should have been that after PR, he did not try to do another film.

but somehow he thought he was a film star lol.

even though PR was actually a terrible film in many ways.

but that dream of making it in hollywood was a real problem, and a sign of how he was over reaching. no UTCM, things might have run smoother at that point. but he was too ambitious/a workaholic, so...

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Reply #223 posted 11/06/20 10:27am

heartpeaceshea
rt

If I was at a computer right now I'd REALLY be commenting but I know I know, don't sigh too loudly or roll those eyes too hard yet. Guess we have to wait until I get my devices :lol:

Without giving actual reference to the previous response, I shall go by memory and say one of y'all are confusing Dougie Fresh's style with the Fat Boys and another one of y'all are confusing the elevator rap styles of Dougie Fresh and Blondie.

And it's all in the spirit of comic relief so I'm happy with it!
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Reply #224 posted 11/06/20 10:34am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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heartpeacesheart said:

If I was at a computer right now I'd REALLY be commenting but I know I know, don't sigh too loudly or roll those eyes too hard yet. Guess we have to wait until I get my devices lol Without giving actual reference to the previous response, I shall go by memory and say one of y'all are confusing Dougie Fresh's style with the Fat Boys and another one of y'all are confusing the elevator rap styles of Dougie Fresh and Blondie. And it's all in the spirit of comic relief so I'm happy with it!

Weeeeeeeellllll since I brought up Blondie, I was comparing Prince's IB style rap with Blondie, not Dougie

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Reply #225 posted 11/06/20 10:40am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

prince just got doug e fresh in 1998 as by then he had decided that old school rap was now old enough to fit in with his nostalgia trip, so doug e was then presented as representing hip hop, alongside larry graham and chaka khan. but maybe better they didnt hook up in 1984 when doug was a star. id not have liked to have slick rick and doug on a remix of lets go crazy.

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Reply #226 posted 11/06/20 11:06am

heartpeaceshea
rt

I wish I was drinking what you lot are drinking.
But it's fine. I'll let ya get back to your greatest ahow on earth and funny girl soundtracks.
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Reply #227 posted 11/06/20 11:46am

RJOrion

in 1998 -2003, if P was really serious about hiphop or even remotely knowledgable, he woouldve holla'd at people like JayZ or Nas or Camron or Busta Rhymes or Fat Joe or 50Cent.... his attempts at incorporating people llike Chuck D and DougE Fresh well after they were played out, made him look even more out of touch with urban black culture and hiphop

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Reply #228 posted 11/06/20 11:57am

OldFriends4Sal
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heartpeacesheart said:

I wish I was drinking what you lot are drinking. But it's fine. I'll let ya get back to your greatest ahow on earth and funny girl soundtracks.

what funkbabyandthebabysitters said is true, after the 80s he only 'rescued' or pulled in people whose success was faded. If you understand Prince during this period you know it to be true. Search your feelings...



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Reply #229 posted 11/09/20 7:35am

CAL3

First fallacy in this thread is the title itself.
.
Prince wasn’t an artist and he didn’t create art. He was a pop musician/performer who created entertainment. That’s not a slight or insult in ANY way, incidentally.
.
Reframe the whole topic from the correct perspective and it becomes clear that all entertainers who produce a product for mass consumption must inevitably “compromise” (i.e. make adjustments necessary to compete in the ever-changing marketplace) in order to remain successful.
.
And while Prince was not an artist, that’s not to say he didn’t issue anything with artistic aspirations. It’s certainly worth noting, however, that attempted art such as The Rainbow Children was met with a generally cold shoulder.
I’ve been informed that my opinion is worth less than those expressed by others here.
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Reply #230 posted 11/09/20 9:10am

herb4

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CAL3 said:

First fallacy in this thread is the title itself. . Prince wasn’t an artist and he didn’t create art. He was a pop musician/performer who created entertainment. That’s not a slight or insult in ANY way, incidentally. . Reframe the whole topic from the correct perspective and it becomes clear that all entertainers who produce a product for mass consumption must inevitably “compromise” (i.e. make adjustments necessary to compete in the ever-changing marketplace) in order to remain successful. . And while Prince was not an artist, that’s not to say he didn’t issue anything with artistic aspirations. It’s certainly worth noting, however, that attempted art such as The Rainbow Children was met with a generally cold shoulder.


uh...wtf is this?

Pretty sure Prince considered himself an artist and referred to himself as such on multiple occasions


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Reply #231 posted 11/09/20 9:20am

jaawwnn

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Prince didn't just create entertainment anymore than Motown or James Brown just created entertainment.

I guess if you have a strict policy on art, i.e. formal training by the academy and, i dunno, funded by a rich patron, then all of the above would fail.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #232 posted 11/09/20 10:19am

herb4

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Prince was certainly an artist. One of the best I've I've ever heard/seen/watched/read actually in his chosen medium of creating music, films and performing live.

The way he referred to his creations seem to support that view.

Not sure why this view might be considered controversial by anyone here but the org is gonna org I guess.

I've read a lot of Hot Takes here but, honestly, I think "The joke's on you! Prince was not an artist!" is one of the hottest.

But...well...maybe it's me and I've been wasting the last 40 years of my life following someone I only thought was an artist this whole entire time.

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Reply #233 posted 11/09/20 10:35am

jaawwnn

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There's a wider conversation about low art or pop art I guess, I thought it had been settled but some people might still draw lines for whatever reason.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #234 posted 11/09/20 11:15am

rednblue

Speaking of studying art at a school, departments sometimes carry names like "visual art" and "performing art."

IMO, the involvement of someone other than the artist is implied by the term "performing art." And all forms of art are often thought about in terms of an audience. Prince expressed that he wanted to get his art out so that people could experience it. He seemed at times distressed when record companies tried to limit the speed for the album mechanism of getting his music to people's ears.

Partly thinking here about how to me, the term entertainer implies an audience other than oneself, though an audience certainly could consist of only oneself. : )

Anyway, I'd say in the case of most or all people who we call artists, their art is in some way shaped by various of their world's practical considerations: financial considerations, audience characteristics, characteristics of any empolyers/patrons/etc., access to material and equipment, etc.

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Reply #235 posted 11/09/20 12:41pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

I can't even decide the best gif to post right now they're all so appropriate!
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Reply #236 posted 11/10/20 2:24am

NouveauDance

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herb4 said:

uh...wtf is this?

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Reply #237 posted 11/11/20 2:06pm

CAL3

herb4 said:



CAL3 said:


First fallacy in this thread is the title itself. . Prince wasn’t an artist and he didn’t create art. He was a pop musician/performer who created entertainment. That’s not a slight or insult in ANY way, incidentally. . Reframe the whole topic from the correct perspective and it becomes clear that all entertainers who produce a product for mass consumption must inevitably “compromise” (i.e. make adjustments necessary to compete in the ever-changing marketplace) in order to remain successful. . And while Prince was not an artist, that’s not to say he didn’t issue anything with artistic aspirations. It’s certainly worth noting, however, that attempted art such as The Rainbow Children was met with a generally cold shoulder.


uh...wtf is this?

Pretty sure Prince considered himself an artist and referred to himself as such on multiple occasions



.
Considering oneself an artist and actually BEING an artist are entirely different things.
I’ve been informed that my opinion is worth less than those expressed by others here.
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Reply #238 posted 11/11/20 2:07pm

CAL3

NouveauDance said:



herb4 said:


uh...wtf is this?


.
Oh how easy it is to accuse someone of trolling when they put forth ideas that are less than popular.
I’ve been informed that my opinion is worth less than those expressed by others here.
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Reply #239 posted 11/12/20 8:37pm

JudasLChrist

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Prince was one of the greatest artists of our time. An American artist from the midwest who perfectly synthesized a bunch of different American popular music and outright valourized midwestern funk.

If Prince wasn't an artist, who is?

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